Lance Armstrong ends fight against doping charges part deux

[Stat Brother]

Wrong thread.

So I'll use this space to say:-

What [MENTION=12656]Pantani[/MENTION] said.

If one of the main sports wasn't so scared of what it might find, then cycling would instantly be a footnote.
Or quite possibly a beacon for hope in the future.
(I accept that may well be a reach!)

 

[Triggaaar]

Led the way? Took it to another level? I suspect that both Stat and I feel that is rather naive.

I don't agree, but I'm listening if you have evidence.

The unique thing about Armstrong is the complicity of the governing body, but athletics has had, and probably still does have a far larger problem, imo.

The unique thing about cycling is that at one point, just about everyone was doping. It was not only common and widespread, but totally accepted as the way things were. Athletics has had a big problem for a long time, but I think cycling peaked higher. I hope that you're right about cycling having less of a problem than athletics now. I wouldn't be watching if I didn't agree.

Greater rewards = greater risks? I would say it is inevitable that that is the case.

It's not that simple. The reward for cheating is high in many sports, but generally being less well paid does not make cheating less attractive to cyclists. Because you can earn a lot of money in other sports without being close to the best, it's possible to be very wealthy and not cheat, so for many the reward of being even more stupidly rich is not worth the risk of losing it all.

 

[Stat Brother]

The unique thing about cycling is that at one point, just about everyone was doping. It was not only common and widespread, but totally accepted as the way things were. Athletics has had a big problem for a long time, but I think cycling peaked higher. I hope that you're right about cycling having less of a problem than athletics now. I wouldn't be watching if I didn't agree.

Unlike oh I don't know lets say the 100 metres, Ben Johnson final, where all 8 competitors were subsequently popped or have massive question marks over them.
Then every 100 metres race since.

Yet cycling is to blame.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Kenyan TV documentary on EPO use re.../47tex?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Not many cyclists on this list -

http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/

Boxing, rugby, athletics are rife with it. Football and tennis most likely too given their lack of testing and potential rewards.

 

[Triggaaar]

Unlike oh I don't know lets say the 100 metres, Ben Johnson final, where all 8 competitors were subsequently popped or have massive question marks over them.

That may be exaggerating, but I agree that athletics is very dirty. But there was a point in cycling where the athletes didn't even bother to hide it any more. Cycling earned a reputation, and Armstrong won 7 Tours after having cancer, and he'll continue to be mentioned when the subject comes up. Every TdF podium had dopers on it until Wiggins. Froome is only pictured because we're mid tour, and the French have accused him of cheating.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

That may be exaggerating

Not really -

 

[Triggaaar]

Unlike oh I don't know lets say the 100 metres, Ben Johnson final, where all 8 competitors were subsequently popped or have massive question marks over them.

That may be exaggerating

Not really -

Did you even read that?

That says:
Calvin Smith, never linked to drugs.
Robson de Silva, never linked to drugs.

 

[Triggaaar]

How do you know that every footballer is not doping when the testing is virtually non-existent?

That's a weird point to try and make. The reason we're discussing this is because Stat Bro doesn't like that pictures of cyclist are always posted when the subject of doping comes up. They can hardly post pictures of footballers who aren't suspected of doping, it wouldn't make sense, regardless how many dope.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Did you even read that?

That says:
Calvin Smith, never linked to drugs.
Robson de Silva, never linked to drugs.

Of course I did, but there's a reason it's called the dirtiest race in history and they all ran slower than bolt, gatlin, gay, Powell.

Salazar, Chinese athletes several years ago, Kenyan epo, lack of testing in the most dominant countries.

He's not exaggerating to say athletics is full of it and had been since the dark days of the eastern bloc!

 

[Stat Brother]

That's a weird point to try and make. The reason we're discussing this is because Stat Bro doesn't like that pictures of cyclist are always posted when the subject of doping comes up. They can hardly post pictures of footballers who aren't suspected of doping, it wouldn't make sense, regardless how many dope.

Very true.

It's not that I don't like it, as said it's self inflicted and nothing to forgive and forget.
I fully appreciate that this is how it is, and cycling only has itself to blame.

It's just annoys me, (and so shit I have to caveat the next sentence) that a hopefully squeaky clean athlete is deemed a poster boy for 1 in 10 drugs cheats, when Christ knows how many convicted athletes are currently running round the Olympic stadium.

 

[Triggaaar]

Of course I did, but there's a reason it's called the dirtiest race in history

What's that got to do with anything? Stat Bro said all 8, i said that may be exaggerating, and you said not really, and then showed that it's not all 8

He's not exaggerating to say athletics is full of it and had been since the dark days of the eastern bloc!

But I didn't say that would be an exaggeration, I was only (and clearly) referring to the suggestion that all 8 had been shown to be doping etc.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Am I right in thinking Armstrong's only apologies so far have been the weak ones seen on Oprah etc?

Presume one day there will be a (best selling) book in which he tells all and begs for forgiveness. When he runs out of cash, I suppose.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's just annoys me, (and so shit I have to caveat the next sentence) that a hopefully squeaky clean athlete is deemed a poster boy for 1 in 10 drugs cheats, when Christ knows how many convicted athletes are currently running round the Olympic stadium.

Doping in sport annoys me too. If cycling is, or becomes one of the cleanest, then I'd take that as a victory. We can enjoy good racing that's clean. I can't be bothered to watch athletics as cheating is so endemic.

 

[beorhthelm]

Boxing, rugby, athletics are rife with it. Football and tennis most likely too given their lack of testing and potential rewards.

the presence in rugby does make you wonder, but the thing about football and certainly tennis is there's far more emphasis on skill and technique. you can run all day, if your control, passing, tackle, shooting, whatever isnt good enough you wont get anywhere (though sometimes we wonder how they do...). Rugby, alot of techniqu sure, but also a big emphasis on bulk. cycleing and athletics, its largely about raw power and physical endurance. (im sure technique is important at the top but of a much lower significance).

 

[Stat Brother]

What's that got to do with anything? Stat Bro said all 8, i said that may be exaggerating, and you said not really, and then showed that it's not all 8

But I didn't say that would be an exaggeration, I was only (and clearly) referring to the suggestion that all 8 had been shown to be doping etc.

I'm sure you're not saying 'see it was only 6 of the 8'!!

Anyway listening to Phil Williams Team Talk, some female athlete and Alison Curbishley :swoon: were talking about the womens 1500m (?) world record broken last week.

The previous record was set by a Chinese athlete around their Olympics.
The dancing then made around the comments surrounding 'all these Chinese world records', intimating echo's of Eastern Europe, was incredible.
The record has now been broken by an Ethiopian with very little 1500m pedigree.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Am I right in thinking Armstrong's only apologies so far have been the weak ones seen on Oprah etc?

Presume one day there will be a (best selling) book in which he tells all and begs for forgiveness. When he runs out of cash, I suppose.

Hopefully everyone will just not notice him and just ignore by then...

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Hopefully everyone will just not notice him and just ignore by then...

Tough one. On the one hand, I'd be genuinely fascinated to hear a completely honest account, starting with his pre-cancer era, of his entire career.

On the other, he doesn't deserve the proceeds of such a book.

 

[Stat Brother]

the presence in rugby does make you wonder, but the thing about football and certainly tennis is there's far more emphasis on skill and technique. you can run all day, if your control, passing, tackle, shooting, whatever isnt good enough you wont get anywhere (though sometimes we wonder how they do...). Rugby, alot of techniqu sure, but also a big emphasis on bulk. cycleing and athletics, its largely about raw power and physical endurance. (im sure technique is important at the top but of a much lower significance).

That's edging very close to the 'no drug can make you kick a ball straight' defence, and that's very dangerous ground.

EPO, HGH, steroids, micro dosing, blood transfusion etc, sadly the list is as long as your arm, in cycling is not to make you a better cyclist.

It was all used to make your produce more red blood cells, so your body could carry more oxygen in order to train harder, ride further, and recover quicker, to do it all over again.

Who wouldn't want their team to play top quality football in the last 20 minutes of each game.
Recover quicker from the effort.
Play top quality 72 hours later?

A drug regime doesn't make a poor sportsman good, or even an excellent sportsman a world beater.
But if everyone else is clean, they'll be the best, if everyone else is cheating you'll not make it clean.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

the presence in rugby does make you wonder, but the thing about football and certainly tennis is there's far more emphasis on skill and technique. you can run all day, if your control, passing, tackle, shooting, whatever isnt good enough you wont get anywhere (though sometimes we wonder how they do...). Rugby, alot of techniqu sure, but also a big emphasis on bulk. cycleing and athletics, its largely about raw power and physical endurance. (im sure technique is important at the top but of a much lower significance).

This is the misconception, the difference in performance amongst the top athletes is minimal and improved strength/endurance are massive benefits. In the search for that extra 1% many will take whatever means necessary.

 

[Stat Brother]

Tough one. On the one hand, I'd be genuinely fascinated to hear a completely honest account, starting with his pre-cancer era, of his entire career.

On the other, he doesn't deserve the proceeds of such a book.

It's easy to forget Lance was an incredible cyclist.

I don't think his drug taking has been traced back to his pre cancer days.
Although I may be wrong, as quite frankly I'll be happy to never see or hear of him again. (easier said than done with my sport of choice)
He was World Champion, and he won a couple of classics.