[Albion] Knockaert

[sussex_guy2k2]

On Saturday he did bring onto the pitch an air of excitement and the hope that he could do something to unlock the Liverpool defence. However, one of the first things he did was collect the ball on the right and begin a mazy run right across the field, then losing the ball close to the left hand touchline. Typical Knockaert in a way. So much potential and you really want him to do stuff … but then he screws up.

Knockaert lost the ball 3 times on Saturday from my recollection. I actually thought we were offensively worse when he came on. He didn't create a chance when he came on either.

Look, I'm not knocking Knocky. I like him as a player, I just think people on here are so blinkered with March that they can't see what's actually happening on the pitch.

 

[Nobby]

Maybe, if the strikers take the chances Knockaert provides them with. Statistically though, he's going to provide less chances than March per game still.

And you're right, lobbing a ball into an empty box isn't creating a chance. The stats are based on passes or crosses that lead to a shot. March creates more of these than Knockaert per game...

I’m lost. Knockaert 278 minutes per assist and March 342 minutes per assist. So Knocky is more consistent than Solly, not the other way round

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Does cutting it back to a player who's 30 yards out who then hoofs it miles over the bar count as well? We need some clarification on what a created chance is.

Although assists can be a bit dodgy too.

It's a pass or a cross that leads to a shot on goal, or more specifically a "key pass" as it's referred to in pretty much every statistical base/website.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

People seem to struggle with this chances created per game stat. It's based on the amount of chances you've created divided by the amount of minutes you've been on the pitch. It's not an accumulation over a season. Solly creates more chances than Knockaert this season. There's nothing to argue about this. You might fancy it, but it simply isn't happening. What you're really saying is you prefer watching Knockaert, which is fair. But he isn't creating more chances per game and based on their respective form this season so far, it's unlikely that that would change.

Attack, attack, attack attack attack! Bound to work. Stop talking the club down with your tedious facts.

Frank Lampard and Martin Peters. Dull, dull, dull. What did they bring to the table? Nothing. Why their managers kept selecting them year after year is simply beyond me.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I’m lost. Knockaert 278 minutes per assist and March 342 minutes per assist. So Knocky is more consistent than Solly, not the other way round

No, other players have taken the chances Knockaert has created more consistently. He doesn't create as many chances per 90 minutes though.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Attack, attack, attack attack attack! Bound to work. Stop talking the club down with your tedious facts.

Frank Lampard and Martin Peters. Dull, dull, dull. What did they bring to the table? Nothing. Why their managers kept selecting them year after year is simply beyond me.

I know, even I'm getting annoyed at myself for supporting our players with actual facts and not just the things I see. I actually think people on here would comprehend my argument better if I just said "but I saw March be better with my own eyes!!"...

The worst thing about this is I actually like both players a lot. I just don't get the logic in dropping a player who is consistently one of our most creative...

 

[Jovis]

No, other players have taken the chances Knockaert has created more consistently. He doesn't create as many chances per 90 minutes though.

Of course he doesn’t, because by the time he gets on the pitch there’s 20 minutes left, our strikers have been replaced by holding midfielders and we’re camped in our own half defending for our lives. There’s no one to create chances for! I don’t think this is a fair comparison unless they’re both starting games, which particularly at home, is when we have much more attacking intent.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Of course he doesn’t, because by the time he gets on the pitch there’s 20 minutes left, our strikers have been replaced by holding midfielders and we’re camped in our own half defending for our lives. There’s no one to create chances for! I don’t think this is a fair comparison unless they’re both starting games, which particularly at home, is when we have much more attacking intent.

With the utmost respect, this is utter nonsense. All of CHs substitutions at the weekend were like for like. The system didn't change. If anything, he put on a more mobile forward and Knockaert with the intention of going more attacking at the weekend but it had the opposite effect. If you're bringing on Andone and Knockaert it's not because you want to shut up shop at 1-0 down.

 

[Sidwell Jnr]

With AK and solly I think it mainly comes down to personal preference. At the end of the day they’re completely different players, solly is more defensive and passes the ball around where as AK’s first thought most of the time is to beat the man in front of him. I prefer watching Knockaert play but I can see why he opts for Solly in the tougher games.

 

[Jovis]

With the utmost respect, this is utter nonsense. All of CHs substitutions at the weekend were like for like. The system didn't change. If anything, he put on a more mobile forward and Knockaert with the intention of going more attacking at the weekend but it had the opposite effect. If you're bringing on Andone and Knockaert it's not because you want to shut up shop at 1-0 down.

At the weekend, fair enough. But we routinely see ‘shut up shop’ substitutions at the Amex, which is what I was referring to. Not just the one game.

 

[Triggaaar]

Assists are great but they rely solely on someone actually finishing the chance you create... key passes are the amount of actual chances you provide your strikers with across a 90 minute period.

It's useful to know both, because assists are more likely to be good chances created, rather than a pass that hasn't helped the forward so much. And then we also need to take into account their defensive work. Thankfully we've got Chris to work it all out for us.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

In fairness no player is invulnerable to a dip in form and that is what Solly has going on right now. Bong had a dip and lost his place to Bernardo, Knocky had a dip and lost it to Solly/Loco, Muzza/Andone, Bruno/Montoya etc. I think Solly should sit out a couple of games and AK come back in.

I don't know that it was necessarily a dip in form that cost the players you mention their places. Bong wasn't playing especially badly, simply that l think Bernardo is a better overall player, Knockaert hasn't exactly set the Premier League alight in the way he did the Championship, so March was given the chance, and after all the money we splashed out on Lacadia we needed to fit him in somewhere. Andone too is a totally different kind of foward to Murray, whilst Bruno of course is almost at the end of his career and needed replacing.

All for me are doing pretty well so far.

 

[doogie004]

Right... so he's consistently created chances over a longer period of games than anyone bar Gross. And people want to take that out of our team?

How can u compare unles he plays the same number of games and time on pitch ?


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[Springal]

Stats are great, but I trust the management and coaching staff that see these players close up, day in / day out

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

How can u compare unles he plays the same number of games and time on pitch ?


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Because key passes per game (which is worked out based on a player's minutes on the pitch) divides the total number of chances created (or crosses/passes that lead to a shot) by the minutes on the pitch i.e. one player might create 1 chance per game over a 10 game period giving him a key pass rate of 1 key pass per game, and one player might create 1 chance over the 10 game period meaning he's got a key pass rate of 0.1 key passes per game.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

It's useful to know both, because assists are more likely to be good chances created, rather than a pass that hasn't helped the forward so much. And then we also need to take into account their defensive work. Thankfully we've got Chris to work it all out for us.

100%. I don't disagree with that at all. For example, a number of the assists that Gross, March and Knockaert have got have come from set plays, which is also a factor. But there's still the overall point that some players create more chances than others over a period of games and March is our second best player in this regard this season.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

At the weekend, fair enough. But we routinely see ‘shut up shop’ substitutions at the Amex, which is what I was referring to. Not just the one game.

True, but the converse argument is that it's easier to come on against tiring defensive legs and create chances than it is to play against fresh players...

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Stats are great, but I trust the management and coaching staff that see these players close up, day in / day out

The staff and management who will be looking at stats all the time... I mean did you see Bielsa's press conference yesterday? The whole of his knowledge base was around stats!

 

[Springal]

The staff and management who will be looking at stats all the time... I mean did you see Bielsa's press conference yesterday? The whole of his knowledge base was around stats!

Yes of course, but that was about the opposition was it not ?

 

[S'hampton Seagull]

If CH keeps faith with the current 4-3-3 formation next season we won't need 4 wide players in the squad. Another wide forward would need to be added as well as another CM IMO. My feeling is we won't bin off AJ or Jose, plus March is an HGP which would leave little room for Knocky unfortunately.

If we stay 4-4-1-1 he's got a longer term future.