[News] Just Stop Oil

[Mo Gosfield]

I trust the arrests were of the motorists for assault?

Should be long prison sentences for motorists trying to keep the highways and byways clear.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Having owned a 2014 Leaf in the past, and a 2008 Civic, I’d argue that the Civic (on first inspection) seems a more solid product, but the Leaf is also very well put together, and I would actually have a Leaf again over a Civic. The Civic proved a far more costly ownership experience, was less comfortable, and had worse visibility. The Leaf is the better car.

Equally you can still do long trips in the Leaf, you just need to budget in a 30 minute stop per hundred miles. Just time for a nice coffee and to get rid of the coffee you had the last time you stopped.

Electric cars have their uses and benefits, but trying to argue that a Leaf can match a petrol car for long journeys just gives ammunition to your opponents.

Remember that this is the 24kw Leaf, not the modern version, and 70mph driving costs a third of the range so your suggestion would have to involve pootling along with wagons overtaking for maximum range. The 2015 Leaf is a runabout car, or a second car, not a car for long (or even middle) distances.

 

[worthingseagull123]

I’m curious to know how many times a week most people drive over 124 miles in one go, though

I drive from Worthing to South London once or twice a week for work. 124 range wont get me there any back on one charge.

Family in a Suffolk. I visit once or twice a month. Usually drive non-stop. Around 170 miles each way.

I could buy a Euro 5 petrol car, ULEZ compliant, for half the price of a 2015 Nissan Leaf.

 

[Creaky]

Electric cars have their uses and benefits, but trying to argue that a Leaf can match a petrol car for long journeys just gives ammunition to your opponents.

Remember that this is the 24kw Leaf, not the modern version, and 70mph driving costs a third of the range so your suggestion would have to involve pootling along with wagons overtaking for maximum range. The 2015 Leaf is a runabout car, or a second car, not a car for long (or even middle) distances.

You describe the real problem with solving global warming perfectly.

We, as consumers, will continue to ignore global warming so long as to do otherwise costs us more, is less convenient or not as immediately pleasurable.

 

[keaton]

Should be long prison sentences for motorists trying to keep the highways and byways clear.

They could just not drive. That would make them clearer

 

[dsr-burnley]

You describe the real problem with solving global warming perfectly.

We, as consumers, will continue to ignore global warming so long as to do otherwise costs us more, is less convenient or not as immediately pleasurable.

Yes, that is a real problem. At present, the people who are willing to take one less foreign holiday and give up petrol cars, are the people who have two foreign holidays a year and have the money to pay for an electric car. It is going to be a problem to get the people who have only one foreign holiday and can't afford a new car, to follow suit.

Ditto foreign policy. In the UK we can say we need to cut fossil fuel power by x% and replace it with renewable, but much of the world doesn't have the money for that as they chase the almost-undreamed-of wealth that we have. They want electricity and fuel as cheaply as possible. Unless we of the rich countries can find a way to double and quadruple the power output of poorer countries while still reducing their fossil fuel usage, we won't get anywhere.

 

[A1X]

Should be long prison sentences for motorists trying to keep the highways and byways clear.

Yep, vigilante behaviour has no place in a civilised society.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

They could just not drive. That would make them clearer

Wow...never thought of that.
We could have all our online shopping delivered by drone or bicycle. All our urgent medical supplies delivered by foot. Bring back the horse and cart and the stagecoach could replace buses and trains.

 

[chickens]

Electric cars have their uses and benefits, but trying to argue that a Leaf can match a petrol car for long journeys just gives ammunition to your opponents.

Remember that this is the 24kw Leaf, not the modern version, and 70mph driving costs a third of the range so your suggestion would have to involve pootling along with wagons overtaking for maximum range. The 2015 Leaf is a runabout car, or a second car, not a car for long (or even middle) distances.

While I absolutely agree that you wouldn’t make a 2015 Leaf your first choice if you were travelling hundreds of miles a day every day, that is not the real-world use case for most car owners. Other EVs are available.

I would argue that nobody regardless of their fitness and familiarity with long drives should be driving more than 200 miles at a time on public roads without taking a break. Once you get past cars that will comfortably give you 200 miles real world use in a single charge, the vehicle’s range is no longer the issue, it’s the safety of other road users from having somebody who hasn’t taken a break for what’s likely to be about 4 hours on the road with them.

Most of us commute, possibly go out again in the evening, and maybe 10-12 times a year do trips for family, or work, or pleasure that are longer than usual.

The inconvenience of a couple of half hour stops a month is surely the lesser evil over watching areas of Europe, the US and China burn?

 

[Jim in the West]

Yes, that is a real problem. At present, the people who are willing to take one less foreign holiday and give up petrol cars, are the people who have two foreign holidays a year and have the money to pay for an electric car. It is going to be a problem to get the people who have only one foreign holiday and can't afford a new car, to follow suit.

Ditto foreign policy. In the UK we can say we need to cut fossil fuel power by x% and replace it with renewable, but much of the world doesn't have the money for that as they chase the almost-undreamed-of wealth that we have. They want electricity and fuel as cheaply as possible. Unless we of the rich countries can find a way to double and quadruple the power output of poorer countries while still reducing their fossil fuel usage, we won't get anywhere.

The "low hanging fruit" in this debate is absolutely to target the wealthy (both individuals and nations). We* are the big problem consumers....much more effective to get those of us who travel a lot, have larger houses, maybe two cars, etc, etc, to change our habits.

*By "we" I'm referring to the average relatively well-to-do Brit. I appreciate many on this Board may not be in that category. I was able to take the train to Norway recently....it was way more expensive than flying, and I wouldn't advocate that sort of change of behaviour for those with a relatively moderate income, struggling to pay bills, etc. But the biggest consumers can make the biggest difference, and need to be aware of their responsibility.

 

[rogersix]

And ?..

and china? logic is your friend

 

[rogersix]

I didn't know that the wind was caused by man made climate change . Just goes to show that you are never to old to learn

simply put, it's thermal differentials

 

[rogersix]

They are opening more Coal power stations still

your logic being that we should burn more oil?

 

[dsr-burnley]

While I absolutely agree that you wouldn’t make a 2015 Leaf your first choice if you were travelling hundreds of miles a day every day, that is not the real-world use case for most car owners. Other EVs are available.

I would argue that nobody regardless of their fitness and familiarity with long drives should be driving more than 200 miles at a time on public roads without taking a break. Once you get past cars that will comfortably give you 200 miles real world use in a single charge, the vehicle’s range is no longer the issue, it’s the safety of other road users from having somebody who hasn’t taken a break for what’s likely to be about 4 hours on the road with them.

Most of us commute, possibly go out again in the evening, and maybe 10-12 times a year do trips for family, or work, or pleasure that are longer than usual.

The inconvenience of a couple of half hour stops a month is surely the lesser evil over watching areas of Europe, the US and China burn?

The point at issue was that a 2015 Nissan Leaf is a cheaper and valid alternative to a petrol car. That's all. Few people would buy a 2015 Leaf ahead of a petrol car if they are going to make a long drive every month.

And your last line is the issue. How are you going to convince people that if thy replace their petrol car with a mostly-gas-generated-electric car, that it will make a significant difference?

 

[pb21]

How are you going to convince people that if thy replace their petrol car with a mostly-gas-generated-electric car, that it will make a significant difference?

How would you convince people?

 

[Triggaaar]

That’s what I’d describe as a sweeping generalisation that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. E.g, a quick glance at Auto Trader will tell you that the average price of a 2015 plate Nissan Leaf is less than a 2015 plate Honda Civic. Both Japanese cars, both hatches, both seat the same number of people.

Why on earth would you pick a Honda to compare the Leaf to? Honda cars are more expensive than Nissan, and they have a better reputation. Next you'll be telling me that you can get a Skoda for less than you can get a Porsche - both German cars, and the Skoda has even more space!


Those older Leafs come with 24kw batteries, and with the life expectancy of 10 years you're probably looking at replacement quite soon on a 2015 model. The price for that seems to vary wildely from £5k to £12.5k - but either way, it's putting taking the total cost past the cost of even a Civic.

With the greatest of respect, you’re wrong.

Back at ya

 

[Is it PotG?]

How would you convince people?

I think he asked you that.

 

[pb21]

I think he asked you that.

Didn't ask me, but I get your point. I am interested in hearing what someone who is seemingly skeptical would suggest. They don't have to answer.

 

[dsr-burnley]

How would you convince people?

No idea. Persuading people to take a significant drop in lifestyle for the sake of general but unspecific future benefits is usually impossible.

The Just Stop Oil people, apart from the extreme but rational fringes who live in woodland communes with very little power usage, are only playing round the edges. What we would need to do to have a chance of convincing the world to change its ways is to make sure that the UK uses less power (not just less fossil fuels, but less power) than the average. Other counties, most of which are still vastly poorer than us, are not going to damage their chances of wealth unless they see us damaging our accumulated wealth and lifestyle. (And probably not then.) And who in this country is going to vote for a lifestyle less affluent than half the world?

 

[pb21]

No idea. Persuading people to take a significant drop in lifestyle for the sake of general but unspecific future benefits is usually impossible.

The Just Stop Oil people, apart from the extreme but rational fringes who live in woodland communes with very little power usage, are only playing round the edges. What we would need to do to have a chance of convincing the world to change its ways is to make sure that the UK uses less power (not just less fossil fuels, but less power) than the average. Other counties, most of which are still vastly poorer than us, are not going to damage their chances of wealth unless they see us damaging our accumulated wealth and lifestyle. (And probably not then.) And who in this country is going to vote for a lifestyle less affluent than half the world?

All valid points, why would someone take a significant drop in lifestyle for the sake of general but unspecific future benefits?

As you suggest, usually impossible, people are very short sighted, particularly on something relatively abstract.

Thing is, if you essentially agree with the idea of climate change, the impacts it will have and what the main/primary/significant factor is you'll be of the opinion that significant changes are needed.

People need to be sufficiently incentivised on a short term basis to change, otherwise they won't, we know that.

Realistically I don't see any other way. Its either hope/assume/bury head and it will be OK, which it might, or do something different.

Then the issue is the incentivisation. Who is going to do that? The state, people wont like that, the market needs to. Is that quick enough and is the long term impact/cost appropriately priced in? Does it matter either way?