Jeremy Corbyn.

[cunning fergus]

it started with talking though
Churchill said"jaw,jaw not war,war"
some kind of peace has to start with someone talking

I know, but all it boils down to is what are the demands, and what are you prepared to accept; and we know that now.

Blair agreed to release convicted terrorists and not pursue others suspected of terrorism.

This is like releasing all those convicted of Islamic terror plots including the 2 behind Rigby's murder in order to get some limited agreement that the UK is no longer a target for Islamic terrorism.

Sorry, that is appeasement...........sometimes to protect your principles you need more than jaw jaw.

Churchill knew that more than most.

 

[Dandyman]

It may or may not have a bearing on anything but before people get carried away with the notion that voters only vote for right-wing Labour candidates it is worth noting that Under Blair the Labour vote decreased from 13,518,167 in 1997 to 10,724,953 in 2001 and 9,552, 436 in 2005. (Labour got 9,347,304 this year).

Corbyn has increased his vote from 14,951 in 1983 to 29,659 in 2015 so it appears that he has some attraction to voters in his constituency.

The issue is not only the appeal of one party but the non-appeal of the alternatives.

 

[clapham_gull]

Jeremy Corbyn seems to be in the running for Labour Leader . A left winger pictured yesterday in Westminster chatting with Martin Mcguiness and Gerry Adams....whilst anyone may chat do others like me feel that Jeremy Corbyn if elected party leader coupled with any association with Sinn Fein would be catastophic for the Labour party.

.. and those of a right wing perspective were more than happy to talk to them behind closed doors. I have no allegiance to any political party, but when I hear the left being attacked for talking with Irish Nationalist it is either from the voice of a complete hypocrite or someone who hasn't bothered to research their history.

They were quite to attempt to negotiate the offloading the Falklands as well until that went wrong.

Depending on your opinion that may not be directed at you.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Indeed, what the labour party needs more than anything to connect with 21st century Britain is a badly dressed leader called Jeremy who still thinks its 1979.

1979. The last time some believe a proper Labour party was in power. Great success they were too. Happy days, descending into the sick man of Europe

 

[RexCathedra]

Churchill knew that more than most.

Negotiated with someone with at least as much blood on his hands as Gerry Adams, to wit, Michael Collins.

 

[Barry Izbak]

He reminds me of Tony Benn. Talks passionately about what he believes in. Answers straight questions and means what he says.
You get the impression that he isn't interested in focus groups and trying to appeal to everyone by being a fence sitter or trying to be popular.

Oh yeah, and he talks utter bollocks

 

[warmleyseagull]

It may or may not have a bearing on anything but before people get carried away with the notion that voters only vote for right-wing Labour candidates it is worth noting that Under Blair the Labour vote decreased from 13,518,167 in 1997 to 10,724,953 in 2001 and 9,552, 436 in 2005. (Labour got 9,347,304 this year).

But he added 2m votes between 1992 and 1997...

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

The Labour Party suffers from the same mind set that I came across in many companies back in the days when I ran Profit Improvement Seminars.

We've got a great product that we believe in, how can we persuade people to buy it?

Wrong question.

The right question is, what product do our customers want?

Followed by How can we provide this?

We had a general Election where the majority - albeit a small majority - voted to the right of the Labour party.

How do the Labour Party react to this? Logic says they need to move a bit to the right from where they were to be closer to what the electorate has said they want.

Instead some people want them to move more to the left - further away from what the majority of the elctorate said they wanted.

There's a technical term for this. It's called moving the target closer to the arrow.

It also leads to unelectability.

Politics is NOT about forcing your ideals onto others. That's dictatorship

Actually, politics can be, and often is, just like this. Just not winning politics.

To win, to get power so you can change the world, you have to give people what they want, not what you think they should have.

 

[Diablo]

.. and those of a right wing perspective were more than happy to talk to them behind closed doors. I have no allegiance to any political party, but when I hear the left being attacked for talking with Irish Nationalist it is either from the voice of a complete hypocrite or someone who hasn't bothered to research their history.

They were quite to attempt to negotiate the offloading the Falklands as well until that went wrong.

Depending on your opinion that may not be directed at you.

I wasn`t attacking them for talking to Sinn Fein but surely you agree that any association that Corbyn has with them will do him few favours with his hoped for voters.

 

[jgmcdee]

It's called moving the target closer to the arrow.

I thought that this was another piece of management rubbish that made absolutely no sense until I googled it and found no results at all. Guess you just made it up.

 

[portslade seagull]

Labour cannot be serious ...........................can they?

Hopefully they are as it will keep them out for years and years

 

[cunning fergus]

Negotiated with someone with at least as much blood on his hands as Gerry Adams, to wit, Michael Collins.

Sure, but as you well know I am not suggesting that it's a problem to negotiate.

The problem is what you accept as a consequence of the negotiation.

Churchill was sympathetic to a united Ireland, however would he have released convicted murderers and provided comfort letters (on the QT) to those suspected of terrorism?

I doubt it.

 

[clapham_gull]

I wasn`t attacking them for talking to Sinn Fein but surely you agree that any association that Corbyn has with them will do him few favours with his hoped for voters.

Then you might as well extend that to Thatcher and Major.

I think voters have moved on from mistrusting politicians because of their discussions with "internal" nationalists.

Interesting times. I work in television and the audience is completely fractured. Find me someone who supports the licence fee, I'll find you someone you hates it.

Same with politics. Many of those voting for Corbyn couldn't care less if he is never elected. He just represents them as individuals and that's all that matters.

I wish I was intelligent enough to write a book on it (which I'm not) - but I believe we are in a weird period of our history where the capitalist individualism of the 1980s has even infected even those of a left wing persuasion.

I think Milliband took a punt on a core vote that might get his party in. It appears he was "right" although the Tories core vote was slightly stronger. Compromise and the middle ground out the window.

Having grown up in the 1980s I never thought we would return to a such a situation. Looks like we have.

Not such much a story about politicians. much more a story about us as a nation.

 

[looney]

The Labour Party suffers from the same mind set that I came across in many companies back in the days when I ran Profit Improvement Seminars.

We've got a great product that we believe in, how can we persuade people to buy it?

Wrong question.

The right question is, what product do our customers want?

Followed by How can we provide this?
.

Quite right. Going to uni and meeting my first Labour Student told me after 5 minutes everything that is wrong with Labour. As a group they are most different from their core voters, they even jabber away in their own language.

We could do with better quality MPs especially in the labour party.

 

[alfredmizen]

.. and those of a right wing perspective were more than happy to talk to them behind closed doors. I have no allegiance to any political party, but when I hear the left being attacked for talking with Irish Nationalist it is either from the voice of a complete hypocrite or someone who hasn't bothered to research their history.

They were quite to attempt to negotiate the offloading the Falklands as well until that went wrong.

Depending on your opinion that may not be directed at you.

I don't think anybody is taking Corbyn to task for negotiating with PIRA , quite simply because he's never been in any sort of position where he's had the power or mandate to , that is affording him far more respect than he deserves , all he has ever done is publicly gladhand them whilst also giving them support and succour , THAT is why people like myself despise him , to say it sickens me that people on here can describe him in such glowing terms as " a breath of fresh air" is an understatement, a day after he sits down and happily takes refreshments with the likes of adams and mcguiness, who willingly presided over the murders of the British civilians and military personnel that Corbyn aspires to lead , not to mention the bomb that blew up a hotel in the town that this boards team is from , the same people that were in com.and of the scum that killed 11 year old Tim parry and 14 year old Jonathan ball , all of you to a man who have praised him , even those who have merely failed to condemn him for his treachery, hang your heads in ****ing shame .

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Suspect you are typical of the Labour followers who would prefer to be opposition than government. Benn was the archetype of this genre, and I had always thought Corbyn was in same mould as he has not followed Labour whip on over 500 times. The choice for you and others who share your views is permanent principled opposition, or change sufficiently that you can convince voters who are less committed to the redistribution cause. You won't change the views of the country, the country needs to change your views. Blair managed this because enough Labour activists saw the futility of permanent opposition.

I'm not a typical Labour supporter but that's mainly because I don't vote Labour. I simply like Corbyn as I believe him to be an honest and principled politician, which is something of a rarity in this day and age. My only hope is that if, and that's a big if, Corbyn was elected Labour leader is that he'd take it to the Tories in the next election. Tories may scoff at this notion but after five years of being royally screwed over by the ones with blue ties the average Joe may See Corbyn as someone who actually gives a toss about them, unlike the Tories who continue to look after those who have the means to look after themselves.

 

[crookie]

The point being they won't be an alternative. They'll be a (large) pressure group who won't ever get to power. Shame the Lib Dems have just elected a goon as they would have been in a perfect place to take advantage

Too right, if Labout move left against quite a right-wing Tory party there will be a gaping hole in the middle, which should be filled by the LibDems, I am not convinced by Farron either, shame the pool to choose from had shrunk to 8, and 1 of those was the ex-leader !! Thought Cable would have been a good leader until his ill-judged recorded boasting about Murdoch that he struggled to recover from

 

[London Irish]

The day after defeat in May I posted a thread on here confidently predicting Burnham would win. I still would be content if that happened but would be delighted to see him lose to the only man who can now beat him, JC. Every day for the past month I've been rubbing my eyes in disbelief that the politics I've believed in all my life has now made the political mainsteam. Would Labour be inevitably defeated if Corbyn were elected? Under the normal common sense, yes - but I think that common sense would be ripped up by such a political earthquake as his victory in Labour. People forget that Greek rightwingers New Democracy were delighted only 2 or 3 years that Syriza were eating up Pasok, thinking that it ensured their eternal election victories.

 

[London Irish]

The Labour Party suffers from the same mind set that I came across in many companies back in the days when I ran Profit Improvement Seminars.

We've got a great product that we believe in, how can we persuade people to buy it?

Wrong question.

The right question is, what product do our customers want?

Followed by How can we provide this?

We had a general Election where the majority - albeit a small majority - voted to the right of the Labour party.

How do the Labour Party react to this? Logic says they need to move a bit to the right from where they were to be closer to what the electorate has said they want.

Instead some people want them to move more to the left - further away from what the majority of the elctorate said they wanted.

There's a technical term for this. It's called moving the target closer to the arrow.

It also leads to unelectability.

Politics is NOT about forcing your ideals onto others. That's dictatorship

Actually, politics can be, and often is, just like this. Just not winning politics.

To win, to get power so you can change the world, you have to give people what they want, not what you think they should have.

And all of that "going forward"

 

[London Irish]

Suspect you are typical of the Labour followers who would prefer to be opposition than government. Benn was the archetype of this genre, and I had always thought Corbyn was in same mould as he has not followed Labour whip on over 500 times. The choice for you and others who share your views is permanent principled opposition, or change sufficiently that you can convince voters who are less committed to the redistribution cause. You won't change the views of the country, the country needs to change your views. Blair managed this because enough Labour activists saw the futility of permanent opposition.

This was never properly tested because Benn never made leader of the Labour Party. Foot was a spineless has-been who nobody, left or right of thr party, wanted but they put him up to stop Benn.