israel plunges to new low

[goldstone]

My view is that the Lebanese government thought it was better to have Hezbollah inside the tent pissing out rather than the other way round. Hezbolloah are a movement like any other capable of being steered towards either greater moderation, as with their community work setting up hospitals, schools and other social programmes, or greater militancy with greater confrontation with the Isreali military.

All academic now anyway because the war will now entrench Hezbollah's military destiny and ensure them massive waves of new converts - should any election be held again in that shattered country I would expect massive growth in their support from the 25 per cent I mentioned.

This is what Isreali strategy has done, it cuts off any hope of Arab moderation. Just as Israel's permanent war has driven the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas, so their latest carefully planned slaughter will entrench Hezbollah in south Lebanon.

My view is that Israel doesn't give a shit about this. It doesn't want dialogue with Arab moderates because that would mean giving concessions on land. And why should they give concessions when they have the biggest army in the region that can wipe out anything that stands in its way?

Israel has opted for permanent low-intensity war with its Arab neighbours, sure, it will lose a very small percentage of its population to Hezbollah rocket attacks and Hamas suicide bombings every year, but that's a less scary prospect to them than giving up the land they've occupied for many years now and will probably now never give back.

When Israel only offers the Palestinian and Lebanese people permanent war, Hamas and Hezbollah will take the leadership of those peoples. The shockwaves of this conflict will continue to reveberate around the world as it also generates a slide to extremism throughout the Middle East.

I think Mr London Irish talks a lot of sense on this subject.

 

[Dandyman]

My view is that the Lebanese government thought it was better to have Hezbollah inside the tent pissing out rather than the other way round. Hezbolloah are a movement like any other capable of being steered towards either greater moderation, as with their community work setting up hospitals, schools and other social programmes, or greater militancy with greater confrontation with the Isreali military.

All academic now anyway because the war will now entrench Hezbollah's military destiny and ensure them massive waves of new converts - should any election be held again in that shattered country I would expect massive growth in their support from the 25 per cent I mentioned.

This is what Isreali strategy has done, it cuts off any hope of Arab moderation. Just as Israel's permanent war has driven the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas, so their latest carefully planned slaughter will entrench Hezbollah in south Lebanon.

My view is that Israel doesn't give a shit about this. It doesn't want dialogue with Arab moderates because that would mean giving concessions on land. And why should they give concessions when they have the biggest army in the region that can wipe out anything that stands in its way?

Israel has opted for permanent low-intensity war with its Arab neighbours, sure, it will lose a very small percentage of its population to Hezbollah rocket attacks and Hamas suicide bombings every year, but that's a less scary prospect to them than giving up the land they've occupied for many years now and will probably now never give back.

When Israel only offers the Palestinian and Lebanese people permanent war, Hamas and Hezbollah will take the leadership of those peoples. The shockwaves of this conflict will continue to reveberate around the world as it also generates a slide to extremism throughout the Middle East.

All sadly probably true. The other slightly hidden side of this is the corruption of Israeli society by a permanent war mentality which serves to further undermine the remaining postive aspects of the country under a narrow nationalist/religous agenda.

 

[London Irish]

Every time an issue like this comes along, you mount your high horse and head off for the moral high ground.

Were you really the only person who read my post and thought I was comparing a spat between two posters to the loss of thousands of lives? Were you the only person that couldn't see that my point was about how such situations occur and that even talking about it causes massive flare ups?. You even reinforce my point by saying that it is human nature to be upset. But you seem to believe that it is OK for such a debate to turn into the slanging match we had on here. Taking two soliders hostage is an emotive issue and overreactions on both sides have led to the current situation. Yet you justify massive overreactions in the microcosm that is NSC.

I assume from your first paragraph that you believed yourself to be the only person who feels moral outrage at the loss of lives on both sides as you seem surprised that the "proles" should get emotive.

It is threads like this that have stopped me from posting on emotive issues because flare ups like this are becoming commonplace. It looks like I shall avoid even observational posts in future in case I offend your fragile sensibilities as you are clearly more morally outraged than me.

Strangely, if I had posted what you had, DtG would have felt the need to reply with "f*** Off, you sanctimonious wanker". I guess that privilege is reserved solely for me.

In this thread, I have mainly tried to concentrate on offering some calm analysis about what might be happening in the Middle East. I would be intrigued to know how all those names you call me here sits comfortably with your only other post in this thread calling for people to stop abusing each other. I think you should practice what you preach if you want to improve the tone of the debate on NSC.

 

[Les Biehn]

In this thread, I have mainly tried to concentrate on offering some calm analysis about what might be happening in the Middle East. I would be intrigued to know how all those names you call me here sits comfortably with your only other post in this thread calling for people to stop abusing each other. I think you should practice what you preach if you want to improve the tone of the debate on NSC.

I just read his post and he didn't call you any names.

 

[London Irish]

All sadly probably true. The other slightly hidden side of this is the corruption of Israeli society by a permanent war mentality which serves to further undermine the remaining postive aspects of the country under a narrow nationalist/religous agenda.

The one chink of light is that the beginnings of a real debate about Israel does seem to be breaking out in the US media. The latest grudging temporary ceasefire declaration is a reflection of the current unease of America in the wake of the massacre.

I was watching a CNN report last night and the reporter seemed to be clearly telling his American audience that the battle for hearts and minds was lost in Lebanon. There are apparently elections due in 3 years' time and he revealed that some new opinion poll sampling had found 85 per cent of Lebanese people declared themselves sympathetic to Hezbollah. This is utterly unique because this is the first time Hezbollah's support has ever gone beyond its Shi'a heartland and into the other religious communities, an utterly unthinkable thing until very recently. If we carry on this path, an Islamic state in Lebanon appears more and more likely to be Lebanon's future, which of course would be a disaster in any number of ways.

Isn't the point of American policy to reduce Iranian influence in neighbouring countries? Another spectacular own goal by Bush.

 

[Hampden Park]

In this thread, I have mainly tried to concentrate on offering some calm analysis about what might be happening in the Middle East. I would be intrigued to know how all those names you call me here sits comfortably with your only other post in this thread calling for people to stop abusing each other. I think you should practice what you preach if you want to improve the tone of the debate on NSC.

pray tell LI, what names did he call you?

 

[London Irish]

I just read his post and he didn't call you any names.

Yes, and you're a very neutral voice, aren't you, my personal stalker? If anyone personally criticises me, you will always be the first person to pop up to support them. There are a hundred examples of you trying to ruin threads on NSC to that effect.

 

[Dandyman]

The one chink of light is that the beginnings of a real debate about Israel does seem to be breaking out in the US media. The latest grudging temporary ceasefire declaration is a reflection of the current unease of America in the wake of the massacre.

I was watching a CNN report last night and the reporter seemed to be clearly telling his American audience that the battle for hearts and minds was lost in Lebanon. There are apparently elections due in 3 years' time and he revealed that some new opinion poll sampling had found 85 per cent of Lebanese people declared themselves sympathetic to Hezbollah. This is utterly unique because this is the first time Hezbollah's support has ever gone beyond its Shi'a heartland and into the other religious communities, an utterly unthinkable thing until very recently. If we carry on this path, an Islamic state in Lebanon appears more and more likely to be Lebanon's future, which of course would be a disaster in any number of ways.

Isn't the point of American policy to reduce Iranian influence in neighbouring countries? Another spectacular own goal by Bush.

I'm not sure how much influence these peopel have but...

http://ga3.org/btvshalom/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=3497769

One of the valuable points however is that the Israeli Establishment do not speak for Jews worldwide nor is there only a single Jewish voice.

 

[goldstone]

Isn't the point of American policy to reduce Iranian influence in neighbouring countries? Another spectacular own goal by Bush. [/B]

He's good at them isn't he?

Just as well McGhee isn't planning to sign George W for the Seagulls!

 

[London Irish]

pray tell LI, what names did he call you?

I'm not shitting up this thread with an extended discussion of this, PM me if you want a genuine reply.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Yes, and you're a very neutral voice, aren't you, my personal stalker? If anyone personally criticises me, you will always be the first person to pop up to support them. There are a hundred examples of you trying to ruin threads on NSC to that effect.

So ignore it.

 

[Les Biehn]

Yes, and you're a very neutral voice, aren't you, my personal stalker? If anyone personally criticises me, you will always be the first person to pop up to support them. There are a hundred examples of you trying to ruin threads on NSC to that effect.

So he did call you a name then? A hundred examples? Stalker? Ruining the thread? Me thinks someone is prone to exaggerating.

I have been reading all the posts all along and with my limited knowledge agree with you on all your points LI. Just don't think you should lie is all. Hampden obviously thinks so to.

By the way I just said I agree with most of what you say. I also opening said I agree with you on another post that was about the Albion so don't start all your victim rubbish.

That is my last word on it.

 

[Commander]

I'm not shitting up this thread with an extended discussion of this, PM me if you want a genuine reply.

Unlike you to dodge a question, LI

 

[The Great Cornholio]

In this thread, I have mainly tried to concentrate on offering some calm analysis about what might be happening in the Middle East. I would be intrigued to know how all those names you call me here sits comfortably with your only other post in this thread calling for people to stop abusing each other. I think you should practice what you preach if you want to improve the tone of the debate on NSC.

Supercilious is a description rather than a name. And my other post didn't call for people to stop abusing each other - it pointed out the similarities with the flare ups of many conflicts - two sides fully entrenched in incompatible standpoints flaring up remarkably quickly.

If you choose to see the last paragraph as a backhanded insult, that is down to you because it wasn't. It says what it means and feel free to search for those words used in relation to me. I'm intrigued to know why the thread starter has gone very quiet.

BTW - this is no way represents my views on this subject which I am keeping to myself. I was just appalled by your first paragraph which implies that you are happy to see people with mutual interests at each others throats over an emotive issue when that is how the conflicts start in the first place.

 

[London Irish]

I'm not sure how much influence these peopel have but...

http://ga3.org/btvshalom/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=3497769

One of the valuable points however is that the Israeli Establishment do not speak for Jews worldwide nor is there only a single Jewish voice.

Yes, there are a number of very brave people and groups doing some fine work: http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/lebanondemoleaflet.htm

 

[looney]

My view is that the Lebanese government thought it was better to have Hezbollah inside the tent pissing out rather than the other way round. Hezbolloah are a movement like any other capable of being steered towards either greater moderation, as with their community work setting up hospitals, schools and other social programmes, or greater militancy with greater confrontation with the Isreali military.

All academic now anyway because the war will now entrench Hezbollah's military destiny and ensure them massive waves of new converts - should any election be held again in that shattered country I would expect massive growth in their support from the 25 per cent I mentioned.

This is what Isreali strategy has done, it cuts off any hope of Arab moderation. Just as Israel's permanent war has driven the Palestinians into the arms of Hamas, so their latest carefully planned slaughter will entrench Hezbollah in south Lebanon.


.

When Israel only offers the Palestinian and Lebanese people permanent war, Hamas and Hezbollah will take the leadership of those peoples.

Firstly youve reverted to your usual defeatist arguement of bombinbg them only makes them stronger. No not really, didn't make the argentines stronger in the falklands war and why dont you apply that arguement to the Israelis?

Your last sentence has to be a joke surley? Hamas constitution is geared to permanent war so to an exstent is Hezbollah. You seem to forget Hizbollah kicked of this conflict, by crossing the boarder in UN uniforms.The UN as usual neither interveined or raised a formal complaint, killed 8 israelis and abducted 2.

Israel has offered peace many times but its always been arab deceit thats scuppered it.

Its amazing in this day an age how people can openly rationalise genocide, which is what your stance amounts to.

 

[northstandnorth]

Its amazing in this day an age how people can openly rationalise genocide, which is what your stance amounts to.


so does israels policy of murdering children. crybaby

 

[northstandnorth]

Israel has offered peace many times but its always been arab deceit thats scuppered it.

what deciet is there in wanting to have back land,farm, cities,houses and resources stolen from arabs on the basis of a promise in some book no fucker believes in.

 

[northstandnorth]

the state is israel was set up by terrorists and it will be destroyed by terrorists,its just a question of how many other nations israel takes with it when it lets of the nuclear arms it holds.

 

[looney]

Its amazing in this day an age how people can openly rationalise genocide, which is what your stance amounts to.


so does israels policy of murdering children. crybaby

Its not an israeli policy stupid.

Oh and hello Richard Whitley aka Les bein aka Northstandnorth and bye, your going on ignore.