Islamist attack in Grenoble

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

ah, the old Baptist Church Defence. If we need any monumentally distorted moral equivalence in an internet debate, someone is always on hand to self flagellate and use a picture of a bizarre family of nutcases to demonstrate our own culture is as dangerous as ISIS.

Why the need for this attempted balance? I am sure everyone is aware of the wicked things done in the name of Christianity, or at least in the name of nation states where it was the dominant religion, which is very different indeed. But at least put up a picture of a Crusader or something. Putting a picture up of the Queensboro mob is like putting up a picture of two drenched converts with a trestle table covered in leaflets in Lewisham High Street to highlight Islamic extremism.

Isn't that exactly what ISIS are?

They both are as bad as each other, and both have ridiculous world views that are so very far apart from Christianity and Islam.

So it's actually quite a good example really. When was the last time you went to a Mosque?

 

[Buzzer]

They both are as bad as each other

They're really not. One is a group of a dozen nutters who picket funerals and the other invade countries, torture, murder and terrorise hundreds of thousands if not millions. One recruits from within one or two families and the other has willing participants, apologists and fellow travellers across the globe. One is a very serious threat to world stability and has cost billions and billions of pounds trying to manage and the other is a frigging circus sideshow that is laughed at and abused by fellow believers.

There's absolutely zero moral equivalence.

 

[ROKERITE]

Isn't that exactly what ISIS are?

They both are as bad as each other, and both have ridiculous world views that are so very far apart from Christianity and Islam.

So it's actually quite a good example really. When was the last time you went to a Mosque?

Of course it isn't. That crackpot family are an unpleasant irritation numbering a few dozen if that. How does that compare to a terrorist organisation killing tens of thousands?

 

[The Spanish]

Isn't that exactly what ISIS are?

They both are as bad as each other, and both have ridiculous world views that are so very far apart from Christianity and Islam.

So it's actually quite a good example really. When was the last time you went to a Mosque?

A few weeks ago in Limassol. One that has been painstakingly maintained since 1974, and is used for cross community activities and peace initiative in one of europes most intractable conflicts (and one we could, in our current position, learn a lot from). Fantastic place and inspirational. Compare that to the countless looted and desecrated churches of the occupied north if you like moral equivalence, but it's not really my bag.

Both as bad as each other, is a phrase I dislike. It's a cop out, even on the occasions it's true. Makes no attempt to resolve.

The comparison between the baptist church and militant Islam is viewed as a risible and cliched one, and widely held to be so in these sorts of debates. I don't think you are aware of this yet.

Gurdwara on Sunday. I get about you know mate.

 

[pastafarian]

Do you know how many civilians, including women and children have been killed in Western drone attacks that targeted 41 Jihadists?

whilst the death of any innocent civilian is horrible in any conflict,
i wonder, since you are offering a comparison, are the women and children killed in western drone attacks deliberately targeted by western commanders in the way I.S. deliberately target women and children for rape,torture,mutilation and execution? Or are they unfortunate victims in a conflict whose fate is also sometimes compounded by the fact wanted Jihadis use women and children as human shields?

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

it's no good blaming why and how,we are where we are

law and order has to win

the IRA and ETA were murderers,ISIS are murderers

dress it up with religion if you want to,but it's a way of life these people are trying to put on you

France is paying for it's old empire,north african decendants particulary algerian will always consider themselves algerian and they feel france owes them for the past

not all muslims are bad,but there's a silent crusade going on and europe is slowly but surely changing and that change will be permanent

ask muslims that live in britain,france,germany,scandinavia,if they'ed prefer their adopted country to become muslim and the vast majority would say yes

that's not intergration,that's a take over

 

[Hampster Gull]

If the USA, China, Russia and Korea decided to join forces, ISIS would be gone within a day, until some other nut jobs replaced them

There will always be nutters

 

[dingodan]

I would prefer to say that Blair facilitated the USA's creation of IS though. It was an illegal war that Blair owns not the UK.

It actually wasn't the Iraq War which is said to have created ISIS. There is an argument there for blowback, but the clear cut case comes from the fact that a) we toppled Gaddafi leaving Lybia as a failed state, now run amok with Jihadists, and b) we have over the last few years been arming "moderate elements" to help them fight against people like Assad in Syria. But we don't know who is and isn't a moderate, and even those who maybe were on the "right side" (as if we can chose who that is) ended up fleeing and leaving hundreds of million of dollars worth of weapons behind them for ISIS to pick up.

Had the U.K. & U.S. Gov got their way, we would have toppled Assad a couple of years ago & ISIS would likely be in Damascus today, no doubt with even more weapons than they have already.

Add to this the military equipment given to the Iraqi Army, who also fled under pressure from ISIS in the north. In fact here are some of the spoils ISIS have obtained from the Iraqi Army alone:

2,300 Humvee armored vehicles
40 M1A1 Abram tanks
52 M198 Howitzer mobile gun systems
74,000 Army machine guns

Total Value: $656.4 million
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/06/04/Fog-War-US-Has-Armed-ISIS

ISIS are not only a creation of Western foriegn policy, but they continue to be nourished and maintained by it.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

A few weeks ago in Limassol. One that has been painstakingly maintained since 1974, and is used for cross community activities and peace initiative in one of europes most intractable conflicts (and one we could, in our current position, learn a lot from). Fantastic place and inspirational. Compare that to the countless looted and desecrated churches of the occupied north if you like moral equivalence, but it's not really my bag.

Both as bad as each other, is a phrase I dislike. It's a cop out, even on the occasions it's true. Makes no attempt to resolve.

The comparison between the baptist church and militant Islam is viewed as a risible and cliched one, and widely held to be so in these sorts of debates. I don't think you are aware of this yet.

Gurdwara on Sunday. I get about you know mate.

Gurdwaras is for Skiks not Muslims no?

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

They're really not. One is a group of a dozen nutters who picket funerals and the other invade countries, torture, murder and terrorise hundreds of thousands if not millions. One recruits from within one or two families and the other has willing participants, apologists and fellow travellers across the globe. One is a very serious threat to world stability and has cost billions and billions of pounds trying to manage and the other is a frigging circus sideshow that is laughed at and abused by fellow believers.

There's absolutely zero moral equivalence.

That really wasn't the point I was making - I was saying how they both distort their views of religion and have the ability to manipulate.

 

[The Spanish]

Gurdwaras is for Skiks not Muslims no?

Indeed it is. my mosque visit frequency seemed to be relevant to you and my qualifications to debate Islamic terrorism. Perhaps I felt pressured into assuring you of my credentials regarding places of worship and familiarity with them.

I won't be going to the thingy baptist church though. That's miles away. There is one in woodingdean but I don't think they are that militant.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

Indeed it is. my mosque visit frequency seemed to be relevant to you and my qualifications to debate Islamic terrorism. Perhaps I felt pressured into assuring you of my credentials regarding places of worship and familiarity with them.

I won't be going to the thingy baptist church though. That's miles away. There is one in woodingdean but I don't think they are that militant.

I was just interested that's all

 

[The Spanish]

I was just interested that's all

When did you last visit one mate?

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

When did you last visit one mate?

Tuesday for Iftar.

 

[The Spanish]

Tuesday for Iftar.

Ah now I understand why you asked. Do you go regularly?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We facilitated the creation of them.

We also fund the Saudis where this ideology comes from.

ISIS have also attacked Saudi Arabia
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-claims-responsibility-for-attack-in-saudi-arabia/

And Yemen
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...126-Yemen-mosque-bombings-medical-source.html

 

[sydney]

Screaming out for another ban.

too much red drink again....

 

[KneeOn]

Going down a different road here

These "lone wolfs" committing "one off attacks" are being radicalized to murder by a warped view of a few passages of a book which was written on the basis of 40 or so selected letters an accounts that very loosely correlated, from a potential 200+ documents. The state enables them through tax-exemption, buildings and it indoctrinates young people in to its beliefs. It even goes after vulnerable people who have hit rock bottom and asks them to join the ranks (although not as militants, in a moderate form). The state STILL carries on supporting this organization despite the evidence that it has been responsible for thousands of deaths. The law has been on its side, making it dangerous to speak out against the evils it perpetrates. Even more shocking, the current targets aren't the first group to be targeted for being different, both by birth and belief. The continued systematic harrasment, blocking, abuse and indoctrination is infringing on the rights of millions around the world to live a free and happy life. It continues to hold down those who spent hundreds of years being oppressed.

Can you not tell what i'm on about?!

Christianity.

Christianity was responsible for groups like the KKK who in the name of god murdered black men and women by virtue of their skin. Christianity in its moderate form opposes gay marriage and in its extreme form has led to hundreds of deaths across the world. For a sample in the USA look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

Christianity and Islam both target people from progressive interpretations all the way through to the most violent and extreme "image of god" and "global following" ideologies.

Facts about what Muslims want:

NO MAJORITY WANTS MUSLIM RULE
NO MAJORITY WANTS SHIARA LAW
NO MAJORITY IS PLANNING A TAKE OVER
ONLY A MINORITY SEEK TO SEGREGATE

The passage at the top was written specifically regarding Christianity. It was written about its most evil, ugly, reprehensible form. It could equally be applied to Islam and its most ugly and brutal form.

The world is far far more complicated than "muzzies wont 2 kil wites so UKIP nd Britan 1st wil sav us" or "NO MUSLIMS KILL EVER SHUT THE **** UP RIGHT WING MEDIA!" If you can't see past the first layer of what has caused an event (i.e. the person actually killing) then you'll never ever grasp the underlying issues (economic, social, historical).

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular however I doubt those who hold such simplistic views would be swayed by this. So i've just wasted my time.