Two absolute VAR howlers yesterday down 100% to the incompetence of the official behind the screen - this lack of competence is the problem.
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[Football] Is football more entertaining with VAR?
- Thread starter Giraffe
- Start date
For me, definitely.
For me, being robbed of points, or having a player deliberately injured with the guilty party getting away with it during the match destroy the spectacle. Avoidable bad reffing decisions kills the game for me.
The wait for VAR confirmation is perfectly fine as far as I am concerned.
I have watched loads of championship TV football this season, and it now seems amateurish almost to the point of absurdity watching offside goals allowed, and horrible challenges disregarded. To me it is no longer proper football.
I appreciate that this is a minority view, but it will be interesting to see what people think in 5 or 10 years. If you had done a poll of drivers in 1968 about whether they liked the new drink driving laws introduced a year before, the result would have been a resounding 'No!'. And as for speed limits....well....
It shouldn't take forever. I have long argued that if VAR can't decide in 30 seconds (perhaps less, 20 maybe?) the ref's decision stands. There is absolutely no need for them to piss about the way they sometimes do. I happen to think that decision are normally much quicker now, as the operators learn the rubric, and the process gets tweaked. As I have also stated, I have suspected the officials subconsciously sabotaged the VAR process, especially early on, because the refs subconsciously (and consciously in some cases) feared that their role was being diminished. We all do this when our job is (or appears to be) downgraded.
Precisely.
And the answer to lack of competence isn't to abandon the process. The answer is better training.
It is the same in my game (drug research). A lot of what is done is shit, and new rules about design and analysis (do it randomized, do it blinded) have been introduced by some organizations. The fact these rules are not always followed and that often nobody checks properly whether they have been followed (when work is sent for publication) doesn't mean we should abandon the rules and go back to the general slapdash-ery that used to be the norm.
Wenger's rule (actually he said it after me so HWT's rule) - clear blue water: you can't be offside if any bit of your body overlaps that of a defender. If you feel this is too simple (ho, ho, ho) then restrict the rule to the 'decision is made on the body waist down'. It is about preventing players taking an unfair advantage after all, not about whether they bend forward or stick their arse out when they run.
The interesting issue here is that the offside rule has been clear for years, but refs (or more usually linos) tended to give it only if they thought they could see clear blue water. Sometimes they got it wrong. When VAR came in it became possible to check with huge precision. I'm not sure this is matched by extreme accuracy however, which is why all the pissing about with lines takes so long. If the bodies overlap the obvious decision is 'not offside', shirley? If this can be captured in a rubric we shall all be able to jog on. Till then.....it will be pissing about for minutes, or rushed inconsistency (presently we are seeing both).
The genie is out of the bottle, though so, my final word on the topic (till next time) is that it is definitely not going away, and those who want it to go away will need to dry their eyes. In the meantime, it is what it is, and the lobbying should be to make it better and quicker.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
No, it’s ruining it. Goal moments ruined and for what ? VAR neither improves nor makes worse the decisions on the pitch. We now have MOTD and Sky muppets complaining about incorrect decisions when they were the ones who agitated for this in the first place. Most of us grew up with bad refereeing decisions as a part of the game. We accepted it and talked about the football. Now we have a situation where nobody can accept a bad decision because it’s ‘the technology.’ I don’t care about the Estupinan goal nor any other individual bad decision. I do care that football has come to this because people decided to stop accepting refereeing decisions in the pursuit of some nirvana of ‘correctness.’ If you want proper analysis of a game watch lower league VAR less games.
Exactly, the problem is not the system but the operatives. Lee Mason was useless on the pitch and now continues in that vein off it. I'd rather not have VAR but the decline in refereeing standards made it pretty much inevitable.
If I were going to change it then I would get rid of the 'clear and obvious' reference. I'd also say give equal weight to decisions by VAR as to the ref on the pitch. Surely, assuming the VAR is not lee Mason, they should be in a far far better decision to make an accurate call than someone who has only seen it in real time!
Agree, surely there are camera positions at Selhurst that are far closer to the goal line, if not on it rather than just the Arthur Waite gantry? That at least should have made it clearer who was the last defender. As for the Arsenal goal, as Murphy was suggesting, they should start with the goal scorer and work back from there. Toney wasn't offside so you look at the assist.
VAR should be improving the game but it is the incompetence of the refs at the videos that is the problem. We can only hope that Webb starts to make changes rather than the pathetically weak Riley who just seem to want to defend incompetence rather than irradicate it.
That’s a fair opinion. We do often complain about change at first (cigarette ban) but eventually come to the stance of never wanting to turn back.
My problem are the TV pundits who talk about football like it’s a fine art, a game of science that can’t have any mistakes or errors. It’s killing the joy of the game all this perfectionism being demanded. Mistakes happen, that’s life, especially when playing games. So surely we should stop focusing on the mistakes and the errors of football and instead value the good nature, fun and gamesmanship required to make a game of sport enjoyable?
What made football big was it grass roots level. It’s sad to see top flight football trying all it can to completely disassociate itself with the grass roots way of playing the game. I fear eventually we’ll see kids laughing and mocking the way football is being played in the park because it doesn’t come with the technology needed for the it to be ‘proper’. Instead, they’ll go straight to their rooms, switch on the PlayStation, connect with their friends online, and improve their fitness levels and technical ability through playing FIFA instead.
Fun or perfectionism, what’s best for football?
jakarta
Well-known member
most cricket decisions are quite quick these days...
I'd accept VAR if it had improved decision making. It hasn't. Referees still make mistakes and on top of that traditional level we've now got VAR making mistakes. And it isn't consistent. It has been a total and complete failure, although it few remaining supporters won't have it and like Trump supporters talking about the 'steal' they are doubling down on how much its improved decision-making and the whole matchday experience.
No what we have is Alan Shearer at Sheffield United v Wrexham saying words to the effect of:-
'that was a wrong decision, that goal wouldn't have stood with VAR, VAR should be at the whole competition'.
Then last night saying
'"it's been an awful day for referees and VAR, you couldn't make it up..."
Yes they agitated for VAR because it's the natural progression of their 'job'.
But nobody ever called 606 or Talkspite to say 'why are you being tough on the ref, it's just a game'.
'We' bought this upon ourselves.
The Fifth Column
Lazy mug
The only way I can see VAR being worth keeping is if both teams have 2 VAR reviews per game, a bit like the cricket. So the manager decides within a set time if he wants to challenge a certain decision otherwise the on field decision stands.
If you define baffling incompetence as entitlement - yes.
The frustration of losing to incorrect decisions that VAR should iron out is now getting tedious. Originally I didn’t mind the theatre aspect of celebrating a goal given / taken away from VAR. It ‘usually’ evened itself out over time. Celebrating a goal twice when VAR confirms, or when an opponent gets one chalked off. The surprise of being given a spontaneous penalty etc…
When VAR was new you took the highs with the lows. I accepted some mistakes would be made as the humans learn to operate and interpret the systems. Issue is the quality and output of VAR decisions is yet to improve. Arguably it’s getting worse as is the general standards of referring. The whole process is sucking joy out of the game by providing clearly incorrect decisions influencing games.
The frustration of losing to incorrect decisions that VAR should iron out is now getting tedious. Originally I didn’t mind the theatre aspect of celebrating a goal given / taken away from VAR. It ‘usually’ evened itself out over time. Celebrating a goal twice when VAR confirms, or when an opponent gets one chalked off. The surprise of being given a spontaneous penalty etc…
When VAR was new you took the highs with the lows. I accepted some mistakes would be made as the humans learn to operate and interpret the systems. Issue is the quality and output of VAR decisions is yet to improve. Arguably it’s getting worse as is the general standards of referring. The whole process is sucking joy out of the game by providing clearly incorrect decisions influencing games.
That’s what I think. Have it as an option rather than something that dictates the game.
Ah, the TV pundits.
"That was a goal". "That wasn't offside". "Let's look at that from multiple angles"
And on the radio it is worse
"That was a coming together!" (oo-er missus!). Luckily I think they have all been warned now to not say "It's a man's game". Apart from Souey.
All that aside, I'm not sure pundits are in pursuit of perfection, merely justifying their own existence by identifying talking points. I don't really have a problem with that.
As for kids and parks.....when did you last see unsupervised kids playing in a park?
And grass roots football is no paradigm of virtue. Referee abuse and clogging are the norm.
No, on balance, I am still in favour of technology. It simply needs a better rubric.
Frankie
Put him in the curry
I was actually in favour of VAR when it first started but I lost all faith in it many moons ago,I just want the enjoyment of football back and not have sit and and wait for the next cock up that deprives the fans and players of their initial celebration.
Yesterday was the last straw,I mean seriously did they blindfold the guy and give him a crayon to draw the line.
Yesterday was the last straw,I mean seriously did they blindfold the guy and give him a crayon to draw the line.
My bedroom window overlooks a park in town just off Dyke road. I see kids after school playing every day in that park, even in the winter. But yes , there’s a lot less kids running around these days than there were 60 years ago.
Fair enough.
For some reason Jethro Tull's song 'Aqualung' popped into my head while reading you reply
Jethro Tull aye!Fair enough.
For some reason Jethro Tull's song 'Aqualung' popped into my head while reading you reply
PS
Coincidence!Fair enough.
For some reason Jethro Tull's song 'Aqualung' popped into my head while reading you reply
I’ve been getting ‘I wanna be adored’ by The Stone roses, with your responses.
Maybe if we talk more, we might even get a Hendrix guitar solo or a Paul Rodger’s vocal performance?