[Finance] If you were given a totally legal way of paying less tax would you take it?

[Giraffe]

I'm confused by this whole Paradise saga in that it seems to be the rich and famous including her Royal Highness that is getting lambasted rather than those who set the rules in Government and HMRC. Surely if it's legal they haven't done anything wrong have they? It's others to blame for allowing it.

If you could legally pay less tax would you?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Many of us already do - via ISA's and pension payments. I'm also sure there's many contractors on here that take dividends from their Ltd companies rather than a high salary to reduce their tax liability.

What needs to happen is the government to close the lopholes that allow loans to be taken instead of salary and thus avoiding income tax.

 

[AmexRuislip]

I think there's people that already do this, those of the Jeremy Kyle culture!

 

[pb21]

Surely if it's legal they haven't done anything wrong have they?

Is something right/wrong only right/wrong because it is legal/illegal?

ISAs are a legitimate item, that have been designed in such a way to be so. Being paid a 'loan' that you never intend to pay back, via an offshore company that only exists to pay you a 'loan' so you don't pay tax, is taking advantage of the system (and regular tax payers like you) in a way it was not indeed to be done. Clever maybe, more mischievous and underhand IMO, but just because it is legal, doesn't mean it is right.

Are you happy to be taken advantage of in this way, bearing in mind the current UK tax revenue would be at least 20% lower if new measures hadn't been put in place over the last 7 years to minimise this underhand behaviour?

 

[Mellotron]

"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Tax should be collected correctly, even down to cash in hand work. Cutting HMRC by 19,000 members of staff (Cameron 11,000, May to cut 8,000) is not exactly going to help is it.

There's so much that isn't right that comes out of this and it's ridiculous, frankly, that it's being brushed aside by many people saying that we'd all do it if we could. How can you be happy with a billionaire, for example, moving money abroad to a shell company to avoid tax and then to buy up a load of property using that company, meaning huge areas of London have thousands of empty properties whilst people can't afford to buy?

 

[Notters]

What I don't understand is why people like this, who have such incredible amounts of money anyway, can even be bothered to do this. I suppose their accountants just deal with it and that is that?

 

[timbha]

"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.

Agreed. There's an old saying "it's what you do when no-one is looking" ie the fear of being caught shouldn't be the reason for not doing bad things

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...the-paradise-papers-a-light-on-murky-dealings

Taxes are, as a noted American jurist put it, the price we pay for civilisation. Voters tax themselves, among other things, for schools, roads, a health service, for welfare provision, to pay their soldiers and build a diplomatic corps. When a group at the top of society secedes and forms a globally mobile republic, able to choose which jurisdiction they wish to operate under, the public is right to ask why we allow this to happen. Why should taxes just be for the little people?

This is true of corporate entities as well as individuals. Increasingly – and worryingly – the international profits of many corporations are showing up in tax havens. It’s no good for ministers to claim the sharing of information on British residents will assuage public anger. There’s little evidence that the tax authorities or the police have the resources to go toe-to-toe with the global elite. The government could shrink the tax avoidance industry overnight – by banning giving public sector contracts to big consulting firms that offer tax advisory services. If crown dependencies and overseas territories want to trade on an association with Britain then tell them to accept mainland standards for regulating financial services.

After the austerity years of private affluence and public impoverishment, there are few takers for the idea that the rich shift cash offshore for laudable reasons. The public mood is one of cynicism, not merely scepticism – and it’s justified by the revelations that politicians have failed to take seriously enough for years.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Would I/do I take advantage of official ways of reducing tax such as ISAs? Yes. Would I enter into a scheme that was clearly a dodge via a loophole? No. Big difference between doing a couple of cash jobs and offsetting nearly all of your tax and yet one is illegal. I'm not a raving 'leftie' or Mother Theresa type but firmly believe everyone should pay their fair share where possible. Not that I do cash jobs as it isn't much of a thing in IT but would I feel bad if I paid full tax on my salary but didn't declare a bit on the side? No. But this is all about degrees and it seems to be very highly paid people abusing the system to pay as little tax as possible which seems highly immoral to me.

 

[CHAPPERS]

I wonder if a builder would do less cash in hand if he knew that everyone else was playing fair, and his customers knew that too? Probably.

 

[studio150]

"It's legal, so it's fine morally" is an odd way of seeing things for me.

Legality and morality are two totally different things. It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads, to ignore homeless people etc. But it would still make me a shit person if I did all those things constantly.

If you cut people up on the roads, I would suggest is not a legal activity, as I assume if witnessed by a Police Officer you could well receive a summons for driving without due care and attention.

 

[studio150]

I wonder if a builder would do less cash in hand if he knew that everyone else was playing fair, and his customers knew that too? Probably.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

If the govt has decided to use tax reduction as an incentive to encourage people to behave in certain ways then I would have no problem in making use of that. It is very different from exploiting loopholes and using cash-in-hand as a way of avoiding payment. Morally I don't really see any real difference between the latter and putting your hand in a charity collection and pocketing it yourself.

 

[Giraffe]

It's legally fine for me to let doors swing shut in people's faces, to cut people up on the roads

Er both of those are illegal!

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

I'm willing to be that a fair number of those who stash their (vast amounts of) money away are also those who justify the government failing to do things that a government should do eg. give disabled people enough money live vaguely comfortably, pay public sector workers a reasonable amount, not see a monumental spike in nationwide rough sleeping figures with the attitude of "there isn't enough money"

 

[CHAPPERS]

I'm willing to be that a fair number of those who stash their (vast amounts of) money away are also those who justify the government failing to do things that a government should do eg. give disabled people enough money live vaguely comfortably, pay public sector workers a reasonable amount, not see a monumental spike in nationwide rough sleeping figures with the attitude of "there isn't enough money"

Owners of major newspaper groups, for example.

 

[Giraffe]

I wonder if a builder would do less cash in hand if he knew that everyone else was playing fair, and his customers knew that too? Probably.

Seriously? Are you really being serious?

The amount of tax avoided by contractors is far greater than the amounts we are talking about with the rich and famous. Tax evasion at the lower level is rife, and illegal, and all too often left unpunished.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Tax should be collected correctly, even down to cash in hand work. Cutting HMRC by 19,000 members of staff (Cameron 11,000, May to cut 8,000) is not exactly going to help is it.

There's so much that isn't right that comes out of this and it's ridiculous, frankly, that it's being brushed aside by many people saying that we'd all do it if we could. How can you be happy with a billionaire, for example, moving money abroad to a shell company to avoid tax and then to buy up a load of property using that company, meaning huge areas of London have thousands of empty properties whilst people can't afford to buy?

Absolutely. A very disappointing reaction by some on here. Comparing an ISA in which you can make limited investment to avoiding £3m of VAT on a private jet FFS is quite frankly ridiculous. People are more outraged by a benefits claimant owning a widescreen tv.

The super rich are taking the p*ss out of ordinary people and that they can get some to feel sympathy for them is remarkable.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

If you could legally pay less tax would you?

For most people, would be a tad odd to volunteer to pay more tax than you legally need to, shirley?