If and When Wayne Rooney becomes both Englands most capped player and top scorer

[Iggle Piggle]

My biggest England memory of Rooney is still Euro 2004. What a tournament for the then young lad. I was so gutted he went off injured in the quarter final against Portugal. I still believe that was England's best chance of glory since Euro 96. Can't talk about that game and not mention that header Sol Campbel buried only for the refs to see something no one else did and disallow it. I also remember Darius Vassell being absolute dog shite in that game. Lazy ******* didn't even run!

England: James, Gary Neville, Terry, Campbell, Ashley Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard (Hargreaves 81), Scholes (Phil Neville 57), Owen, Rooney (Vassell 27).
Subs Not Used: Robinson, Walker, Bridge, Carragher, Butt, Joe Cole, Dyer, Heskey

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/euro_2004/3830451.stm

I blame Alan Shearer for that defeat. Imagine if he was on the bench rather than giving us his anodyne opinions about the game instead of Vassell. I'm sure we would have put Portugal away.

I went to 2004 and we were much better than the Dutch (semi final opponents) and Greece (final). That and 2006 were the 2 tournaments we really did under achieve. We could and should have done so much better.

Shame Rooney has never hit the heights of 2004 since then. I can imagine Sterling going down a similar path. We seem to coach the life out of the more talented players.

 

[spring hall convert]

I've been mulling this over, and I don't think it's a great comparison.

Their records, with the exception of Player of the Year aren't desperately different, once you take the 'rubbish awards out.
I'd say the main difference between the 2 is geographical.
Ronaldo being born in Madeira means he was always going to travel and have his pick the best clubs that are best for him.
Rooney being an insular Englishman was, at the time, only ever going to sign for 1 club, Utd.

Rooney:-

Premier League (5): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2012–13
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2009–10
FA Community Shield (3): 2007, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
Individual
PFA Players' Player of the Year (1): 2009–10
PFA Young Player of the Year (2): 2004–05, 2005–06
PFA Fans' Player of the Year (2): 2005–06, 2009–10
PFA Premier League Team of the Year (3): 2005–06, 2009–10, 2011–12
FWA Footballer of the Year (1): 2009–10* Goal of the Season (3): 2004–05, 2006–07, 2010–11
Goal of the Month (6): October 2003, January 2005, April 2005, January 2007, March 2007, February 2011
Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year (2): 2005–06, 2009–10
BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year (1): 2002* Bravo Award (1): 2003
UEFA Euro 2004 Team of the Tournament
FIFPro World Young Player of the Year (1): 2004–05
Premier League Player of the Month (5): February 2005, December 2005, March 2006, October 2007, January 2010
Barclays Premier League Player of the Year (1): 2009–10
Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12): Best Goal (vs. Manchester City, 12 February 2011)
FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball (1): 2008
England Player of the Year (2): 2008, 2009
Golden Boot Landmark Award 20 (1): 2009–10
FIFA/FIFPro World XI (1): 2011
UEFA Champions League Top assists (1): 2013–14
ref: [265]

Ronaldo:-

Manchester United
Premier League (3): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
FA Cup (1): 2003–04
Football League Cup (2): 2005–06, 2008–09
FA Community Shield (1): 2007
UEFA Champions League (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
Real Madrid
La Liga (1): 2011–12
Copa del Rey (2): 2010–11, 2013–14
Supercopa de España (1): 2012
UEFA Champions League (1): 2013–14
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2014
International
Portugal
UEFA European Championship:
Runner-up (1): 2004
Bronze (1): 2012
Individual
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament (2): 2004, 2012
Bravo Award (1): 2004
UEFA Team of the Year (8): 2004, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year (3): 2003–04, 2006–07, 2007–08
PFA Premier League Team of the Year (4): 2005–06, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09
PFA Young Player of the Year (1): 2006–07
PFA Players' Player of the Year (2): 2006–07, 2007–08
FWA Footballer of the Year (2): 2006–07, 2007–08
Barclays Player of the Year (2): 2006–07, 2007–08
Premier League Player of the Month (4): November 2006, December 2006, January 2008, March 2008
ESM Team of the Year (6): 2006–07, 2007–08, 2010–11, 2011–12, 2012–13, 2013–14
Premier League Golden Boot (1): 2007–08
European Golden Shoe (3): 2007–08, 2010–11, 2013–14
FIFA FIFPro World XI (7): 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
UEFA Champions League top scorer (3): 2007–08, 2012–13, 2013–14
UEFA Club Forward of the Year (1): 2007–08
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 2007–08
FIFA Club World Cup Silver Ball (1): 2008
Ballon d'Or (1): 2008
FIFPro World Player of the Year (1): 2008
FIFA World Player of the Year (1): 2008
Onze d'Or (2): 2008, 2013
World Soccer Player of the Year (2): 2008, 2013
FIFA Puskás Award (1): 2009
La Liga top scorer (2): 2010–11, 2013–14
Copa del Rey top goalscorer (1): 2010–11
Trofeo Alfredo Di Stéfano (3): 2011–12, 2012–13, 2013–14
UEFA Euro Top scorer (1): 2012
La Liga Player of the Month (1): November 2013
LFP Most Valuable Player (1): 2012–13
IFFHS World's Best Top Goal Scorer: 2013[535]
FIFA Ballon d'Or (1): 2013
ESPY Awards Best International Athlete (1): 2014[536]
UEFA Best Player in Europe Award (1): 2013–14
UEFA Champions League Team of the Season: 2013–14

Seriously? One is probably the best player in the world at the moment. The other would struggle to feature in a top 20.

 

[MattBackHome]

I've been mulling this over, and I don't think it's a great comparison.

Their records, with the exception of Player of the Year aren't desperately different, once you take the 'rubbish awards out.
I'd say the main difference between the 2 is geographical.
Ronaldo being born in Madeira means he was always going to travel and have his pick the best clubs that are best for him.
Rooney being an insular Englishman was, at the time, only ever going to sign for 1 club, Utd.

Hmm.

I'm not one to rag on Rooney just for the sake of it, but when compared to CR7 he begins to pale somewhat.

(Very) Basic stats from a quick wikipedia:

Ronaldo 392 goals from 580
Rooney 236 from 523

And that's before you consider how much Ronaldo makes almost every game 'about him', in the sense that he's basically the driving force in every match he plays.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Potato Headed Scouse Granny Shagger with less Brain Power than the average Root Vegetable will probably be my memory of the Great Man....

I am proud to state that your well reasoned comment is nearly word for word what came to mind when I saw the title of this thread.

 

[BHAFC_Pandapops]

It's a difficult one, on the one hand there's no doubt that he's going to become the most capped England player ever and the most prolific goalscorer for England ever, he's still so young. But I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that he could give a lot more than he does.

At the moment (last few matches) he seems to have just tried to hoof balls into the net where he could have passed it. Or lost balls very easily.

And I think still on our minds is the whole rant at the fans for booing, when the criticism was quite fair. Needs to play up, as they all do. Needs to earn respect.

 

[Birdie Boy]

Hmm.

I'm not one to rag on Rooney just for the sake of it, but when compared to CR7 he begins to pale somewhat.

(Very) Basic stats from a quick wikipedia:

Ronaldo 392 goals from 580
Rooney 236 from 523

And that's before you consider how much Ronaldo makes almost every game 'about him', in the sense that he's basically the driving force in every match he plays.

I am sure that if Rooney had played the last five years in the Real Madrid team in La Liga he would have a lot more goals. Don't get me wrong, Rooney is nowhere near Ronaldo and probably could never be but he should be closer than he is. Strange, given his caps and goals, that his England career does seem disappointing but this may eb due to the whole team bringing him down.

 

[Bob!]

World Cup 2010.

This.

Walking off the pitch throwing abuse at the fans.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

He's a good domestic player but he has never dazzled either on the biggest stages or in the biggest games. All the genuine world class players have one or two big memorable moments or big games which they changed and which sealed their status. Rooney doesn't.

He'll be remembered in the UK as someone who never quite made it to the highest level. I doubt he'll even flicker in the minds of the rest of the world.

 

[Sheebo]

What will your main memory of him be once he's retired from International football. Mine will be primarily disapointment but he can't be that bad if he achieves the above.

I'll personally feel for him as many will just see unfulfilled potential but i don't believe it's his fault he's been surrounded by some very mediocre players ( James Milner 50 caps FFS) over the years unlike Bobby Charlton who had a great side around him.

Also whenever i look at the individual talent in that 2006 World Cup squad Robinson, A Cole, Neville, Terry, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Rooney, Owen, J cole. How the hell did they not do better?

Great post and very true.

 

[brakespear]

Sad to think that the number of goals scored count but the number played is not in the equasion. Rooney coming up for his 100th England appearance...42 goals.
Jimmy Greaves 57 appearances...44 goals (England under 23s, 12 appearances...13 goals)

Absolutely this plus maybe the standard of the opposition also may be a factor.

 

[Stat Brother]

Seriously? One is probably the best player in the world at the moment. The other would struggle to feature in a top 20.

Hmm.

I'm not one to rag on Rooney just for the sake of it, but when compared to CR7 he begins to pale somewhat.

(Very) Basic stats from a quick wikipedia:

Ronaldo 392 goals from 580
Rooney 236 from 523

And that's before you consider how much Ronaldo makes almost every game 'about him', in the sense that he's basically the driving force in every match he plays.

Obviously I fully accept I'm being a contrarian, even against my own (valid) opinion at the start of this thread, and I'm certainly not going into bat for Rooney.

I'm just saying the analogy is slightly flawed, as head to head Rooney and Ronnie aren't poles apart.

As [MENTION=19881]Birdie Boy[/MENTION] says CR has spent the last 5 years playing in the sunny version of the SPL, and lets face it, still not got the job done, with only 1 La Liga title.

International isn't much better with CR only have a semi final to show (ironically past Rooney).

I guess I'm just saying in comparison I'm not prepared to dig such a deep grave for Wayne or put Ron on such a high pedestal.

 

[The Wizard]

A good player that could have been much better, I remember watching him for a Everton at 18 and thinking 'what a player' but he's never gone on to be that superstar IMO.

Him being England captain irritates me though, Cahill or Hart for me, I don't understand him being captain, unless it's done on reputation.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Him being England captain irritates me though, Cahill or Hart for me, I don't understand him being captain, unless it's done on reputation.

My only gripe with him being captain, is the worry that it makes him undroppable - which on the showing of this weekend, he certainly should not be.

 

[MattBackHome]

I am sure that if Rooney had played the last five years in the Real Madrid team in La Liga he would have a lot more goals. Don't get me wrong, Rooney is nowhere near Ronaldo and probably could never be but he should be closer than he is. Strange, given his caps and goals, that his England career does seem disappointing but this may eb due to the whole team bringing him down.

Yeah that's true. I think we're basically in agreement.

And I suppose I am predisposed to like Ronaldo just because of his irrepressibly direct style and the fact that he can just dominate attention regardless of the stage (and who he should be sharing it with), a relatively recent example being the Portugal/Sweden playoff.

 

[Mellotron]

My only gripe with him being captain, is the worry that it makes him undroppable - which on the showing of this weekend, he certainly should not be.

To be fair he produced the only bit of genuine class in the Estonia game - if Pirlo scored that free kick everyone would be saying "THAT's why he's world class" (this is not me saying that Rooney is world class btw...)

 

[hans kraay fan club]

To be fair he produced the only bit of genuine class in the Estonia game - if Pirlo scored that free kick everyone would be saying "THAT's why he's world class" (this is not me saying that Rooney is world class btw...)

I disagree, on two counts:

1. The free kick wasn't really that good - the keeper will be dissapointed with his efforts - and it was the only decent free kick he took, despite insisting on taking every one England got.

2. Wilshere played three passes in the match that were genuine class - any one of which should have gone down as an assist, if not for Rooney's wastefulness on the end of them.

 

[Mellotron]

I disagree, on two counts:

1. The free kick wasn't really that good - the keeper will be dissapointed with his efforts - and it was the only decent free kick he took, despite insisting on taking every one England got.

2. Wilshere played three passes in the match that were genuine class - any one of which should have gone down as an assist, if not for Rooney's wastefulness on the end of them.

1. Can't agree. It couldn't have been placed better. Agree that the keeper made a hash, but it was into a postage stamp spot, and I'm sure Rooney was aware the keeper was the Estonia keeper and may well make a hash of it.

2. Agreed that Wilshere played a couple of nice passes - he also spent about 3 minutes lying on the ground each time he was tackled, that boy's got a proper psychological issue about getting injured, understandably perhaps.

 

[The Wizard]

My only gripe with him being captain, is the worry that it makes him undroppable - which on the showing of this weekend, he certainly should not be.

Indeed. We all know he won't be dropped anyway, I'm not sure I remember the last time he had a good game just looks a distinctly average player to me. Think about past England captains, some inspirational great leaders, now we have Rooney who isn't even a natural leader on the pitch

 

[Bold Seagull]

unlike Bobby Charlton who had a great side around him.

Was it a great side though, or a great team? Only Bobby Charlton won European Cup honours. Nobby Stiles, Roger Hunt, Alan Ball and Jack Charlton were the only ones to win league titles other than Bobby. Not sure you could say many of them were great, but they came together and performed better than the sum of their parts as a team.

 

[Pavilionaire]

A good player that could have been much better, I remember watching him for a Everton at 18 and thinking 'what a player' but he's never gone on to be that superstar IMO.

But that's the point, he HAS gone on to become a superstar. Captain of Man Utd and England, £350K per week, FIFA 14 computer game endorsements and globally instantly recognisable, a decade as England player and Prem star, and all that without the looks of Beckham or Ronaldo.

He's simply underachieved in the big international matches. Put Cristiano Ronaldo instead of Rooney into that England side of 2004-2006 and I fancy we'd have made at least one semi, maybe a final, yet Ronaldo's overall goal ratio record is almost identical to Rooney's (114 games, 50 goals Ronaldo vs 99 games, 43 goals Rooney). I suppose this shows that statistics don't tell the whole story.