[Politics] HS2 Decision

[newhaven seagull 85]

if this country built projects like this in the most efficient way and actually insisted on more workforce to build quickly then HS2 would be a good investment and at a fraction of the reported cost.However because we like to string these projects along and put delay into all projects it will inevitable end up costing more and falling behind the slow schedule that they already have.

HS2 should also be extended to Glasgow and Edinburgh, then the Government should ban all internal flights between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[Motogull]

This has got to join up with Johnson's Scotland to Ireland Bridge.

 

[portlock seagull]

if this country built projects like this in the most efficient way and actually insisted on more workforce to build quickly then HS2 would be a good investment and at a fraction of the reported cost.However because we like to string these projects along and put delay into all projects it will inevitable end up costing more and falling behind the slow schedule that they already have.

HS2 should also be extended to Glasgow and Edinburgh, then the Government should ban all internal flights between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Years ago, I went to a big wig conference in London and remember in the mid to late 90s western engineers laughing at Chinese plans to build the same scale and level of transport infrastructure in 10 (TEN!) years, that had taken Western Europe half a century. It could not be done, even in an autocratic state.

The Chinese did it in 7.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Years ago, I went to a big wig conference in London and remember in the mid to late 90s western engineers laughing at Chinese plans to build the same scale and level of transport infrastructure in 10 (TEN!) years, that had taken Western Europe half a century. It could not be done, even in an autocratic state.

The Chinese did it in 7.

10 years? They just built a hospital in 10 days!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

the tech has been ubiquitous in business for at least a decade, people still want meetings in person.

Really? Few seem to in my company/industry.

 

[Beach Hut]

Would it not be better to concentrate on the severely delayed Crossrail and put the resources there to complete it.

Also in this day and age of connected living and many being encouraged to work from home this HS2 proposal seems strange.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Not sure with one government franchise, that cannot be voted out and a standardised service, that you would then get choice? To say nothing of the level of efficiency of a nationalised service.

The implication is always that nationalised services are inefficient, therefore we should sell them off with the sales-pitch 'we'll get a better service at a lower price'. But any increased efficiency goes into profits, is charged back out to the customer as higher prices, whilst any investment is only considered against the bottom line and what it will mean in terms of profits, as opposed to say, comfort or convenience.

If we instead took the view that these are services, designed to provide a benefit to people, and thus it is convenience, comfort and safety that are prioritised, efficiency in costs can be achieved by having a well-motivated management with performance-related incentives to deliver what the tax-paying customers expect from a public service, as opposed to what the shareholders expect to see in their dividends.

 

[portlock seagull]

10 years? They just built a hospital in 10 days!

One building, impressive though it was. But to build the same transport network as Europe took 50 to develop, in just 7 years...now that’s impressive. Planes, trains and automobiles. Nope, hats off, them Chinese don’t half get a shift on. In my village, we’re in year four of consultation just to put a few hundred metres of yellow lines on some residential roads to stop inconsiderate commercial parking. It’s hilarious, part of the planning application delay is because people ‘working’ on have died...from OLD AGE! That’s how badly we run things here. It’s so slow, you can literally die waiting. Which is why, when HS2 was announced today I really couldn’t give a shite because nearly all of us on NSC will never catch ‘that’ train. Which reminds me, what ever happened to Cross Rail opening 2017... Another on time and on budget public works

 

[symyjym]

It will create a lot of skilled jobs, and with a quicker better service will encourage less road use that is important in the future causing less pollution.

Infrastructure projects are good for this country and we have to modernise.

 

[Stat Brother]

[tweet]1227295850780594177[/tweet]

 

[Stat Brother]

It will create a lot of skilled jobs, and with a quicker better service will encourage less road use that is important in the future causing less pollution.

Infrastructure projects are good for this country and we have to modernise.

If only that was taken into consideration 15-20 years, when 'money' was cheap, the North was getting shat upon and our infrastructure was beginning to crumb.

 

[Lower West Stander]

For it personally.

This sort of thing will always create conflict but I think the UK is far too London centric and this is a vote of confidence for the north.




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[Bold Seagull]

It will create a lot of skilled jobs, and with a quicker better service will encourage less road use that is important in the future causing less pollution.

Infrastructure projects are good for this country and we have to modernise.

It's going to take more than 1 high speed rail line. The ambition for the rest of the transport spending is inadequate and lacking a holistic approach to preparing for a modern transport system.

This feels entirely like a big ticket item that will mask the gross underfunding our transport planning needs.

 

[GOM]

If only that was taken into consideration 15-20 years, when 'money' was cheap, the North was getting shat upon and our infrastructure was beginning to crumb.

20 years ago money was 8 times more expensive (6% base rate), 15 years ago 6 times more expensive (4.5% base rate) than now, (0.75% base rate).

Money is cheap now.

 

[GT49er]

Not sure with one government franchise, that cannot be voted out and a standardised service, that you would then get choice? To say nothing of the level of efficiency of a nationalised service.

Why would you need choice? If you want a train, you want it reliable, cheap and on time. You don't get any real choice in most circumstances at the moment anyway - for some longer journeys there might be a choice of routes, but no choice of trains.

 

[Stat Brother]

20 years ago money was 8 times more expensive (6% base rate), 15 years ago 6 times more expensive (4.5% base rate) than now, (0.75% base rate).

Money is cheap now.

So time doesn't fly when we're being 'eased'.

 

[essbee1]

In the Ruislip end, the tunnel goes right under the Hop & Vine, so your drinks will definitely be spilt

On a serious note, it goes right past our allotment and a mile from our house.
Noise won't be the issue, only all the shithouse lorries that will suffocate the local roads.....

Gawd damn them!!! I also heard that ZSL car park has been taken over as a holding area for trucks
and lorries into Euston. In itself nothing, but it has caused a few wildlife issues.

 

[schmunk]

Mind you, re-routing a river, blasting out valleys, all for 20 minutes quicker to Birmingham mad I tell you, mad

You miss the point - it's 20 minutes quicker OUT of Birmingham. That's surely worth any investment.

 

[nicko31]

The Channel Tunnel cost £4.6B (£12B in today's money), seems like a bargain compared to HS2.

Johnson has an excellent record with infrastructure projects, we know we're in good hands

 

[Peter Grummit]

In 1982 there were about 600 million passenger rail journeys. In 2018 it was almost 1,800 million. 3 times as high. Despite the rise of the internet, working from home, skype, conference calls etc. The only significant new lines that have been built in that period are HS1 and the cross-London Thameslink. So, by and large, we've been squeezing 3x as many passengers into the same network.

Here's an extract from the independent review published yesterday (Oakervee Report):

In addition to track path capacity (the ability to run trains), it is important to consider on-train capacity (the ability to carry passengers). Since the 2009 Network Rail study on new lines, passenger growth on the WCML has been significantly higher than anticipated. The study predicted passenger growth on services arriving at Euston during the busiest hour of the weekday peak of 30% between 2007 and 2020, equivalent to a compound annual growth rate of 2.0%.12 However, demand has exceeded expectations. Equivalent passenger numbers between 2007 and 2017 have grown by around 55%, approximating a 4.5% compound annual growth rate.
Evidence for 2018 shows that there was regular standing across the 3hour AM and PM peak period for West Midlands Train services to and from Euston. There was a lower level of standing for passengers using Virgin Trains West Coast with standing isolated for specific services in the peak period. Capacity issues are projected for passengers in the early 2030s without further intervention.Unless there were changes in fares to discourage peak travel, standing would be a regular occurrence on the WCML under central growth projections in the early 2030s, and substantial crowding issues are projected if the high case growth projection materialises.

Yes, £100bn is a lot of money. But it will be spread over 20 years, and borrowing is cheap currently.

The main benefit is the additional capacity provided, both on the longer HS2 trains and on the paths freed up on existing lines that can be used to provide better local commuter, freight and inter-urban services. The speed improvement is a bonus, but a very significant one for many city-city movements: eg Leeds to Birmingham reduces from 1 hr 58 to just 49 mins. That's a real game changer in terms of encouraging businesses to interact, and businessman to leave their cars at home. As well as making it so much quicker and easier to travel to Uni, visit friends and family, etc.

Whilst the first phase is London-Birmingham, this will act as a speedy bypass of the existing WCML so trains to Manchester, Scotland etc. will be quicker just from Phase 1. So the north will benefit even before Phase 2 is built.

One of the real benefits is that it makes city centre locations in Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester much more attractive places to live, work and do business. This clustering and improved density is a much more efficient planning model in terms of business productivity, reducing the need to own a car and therefore being more carbon efficient. Developers in these cities are already all over the key sites (eg Leeds Southbank, Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham Eastside) at the prospect of HS2.

If you want to read more about a long term rail plan that builds on HS2, I recommend this: http://www.greengauge21.net/beyond-hs2-a-plan-for-a-national-rail-strategy/

PG