How do you think Boris has handled it so far ?

[BN41Albion]

I'm going to stick mine out as well then, as this is the appropriate thread for such things. Society has changed massively from the one I was born in and grew up in during the 1970's and 1980's. Community spirit and social conscience are not what they are. A lady that wasn't for turning started it. What patriotism there is has veered toward nationalism. It'll be interesting if what's now occurring alters anything in regards to the course The UK was headed toward in regards to its existential future, but that's an aside. We now live in a selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society where people will not take diktats as they would have done in the past. For example, my brother is a teacher and he tells me at his school they have to ask parents permission now to put a kid in detention?! I remember getting a hard back smacked on my head by my teacher in my last year of primary school! I know which world I prefer. My opinion on why some of this has led us to here, is as follows:

35+ years of vilifying people on benefits, and the journey toward Universal Credit and a system designed to hassle people into work, not provide support. This has been done by both left and right - 'I'm alright Jack' Sun readers and sneering Guardian readers are both to blame. Benefit fraud = front page news in this country. Too many people therefore are looked down on by both society and the state. They are made to feel lesser equals. Too many people grow up with the ambition of simply wanting to win the lottery or marry a footballer. What is the state and society to a lot of people now? Why should they care?

The internet, social media and smartphones = a more selfish, self absorbed, individualistic society. That was inevitable sadly.

The years of austerity and what that has done to public services and their capability to deal with the current crisis. People voted for this, as you say though. They want Scandinavian style public services, but they 'aint paying for it or voting for anyone who might propose doing it.

The populism of Brexit that has now dominated the life of this country over the last 5 years has unfortunately in my opinion played a part in this and the seeds of that came from austerity too - Don't listen to the experts. Don't listen to The PM or every other former living PM. Don't listen to every other world leader, bar Putin and Trump. Don't listen to the CBI or The TUC - you believe what you want and you vote and decide what you want, because you know best. Now it's listen to the experts because they know best, stay indoors, do this, do that, listen to the politicians who told you 4 years not to listen because although you knew best then, now you don't. (I can't believe, because that's all I have to do now, that Macron threatening to close the border jolted Johnson into the lock-down, because it was never going to be an issue due to Brexit, was it? Johnson said so himself. It's just the French media telling lies. I only watch RT and don't trust the MSM now. I know best you see and I use the term 'woke' )

So many people didn't see this coming because they weren't being told. You only had to look south at France, Spain and Italy, but hey ho - keep clam and carry on because we're British, don't you know. Now they have and despite this being unprecedented, plenty of people think they know best and think they know how this will play out. It'll all be fine in a couple of months v we're completely doomed forever. People stuck in high rise flats v people who live in a very big house in the country etc, etc - so many things to divide us v something that could actually unite us. So many imponderables.

So in the grand scheme of things, based on the few reasons I've given above and the general state of Westminster and the quality of politicians now compared to those back in the yonder, because frankly who the hell would want to go into politics after the last few years and the overall state of this country as a whole, I agree with you. For what it's worth, I do actually love The Queen, but her speech 2 weeks would be wasted on too many people now. It wouldn't have been in the past - that's the sad thing, but we are where we are.

Anyway, I think I'm now going to make myself a nice toasted, bacon and egg sandwich for lunch. I'll obviously wash my hands thoroughly with soap and hot water and sing the national anthem first though.

Older person in 'society isn't what it used to be' shocker. Throughout this pandemic I have heard an incredible amount of stories of human kindness in this country, and personally witnessed an awful lot of kindness and generosity. As has everyone I know. Over 750,000 people signed up to be NHS volunteers. That's an awful lot of people.

Though there are flaws (and always will be), society is so much better off nowadays in many ways too. Ask a gay person or ethnic minority person if they thought society was better in the 70s and 80s, for example. Brexit happened, but that doesn't mean we're not 100 times more tolerant as a society than we were through the decades you grew up. We actually give children and young people a voice nowadays, much different to teaching methods of old. We actually try to understand why children might be misbehaving in school - understand their home life, etc, rather than just giving them a good old thrashing (behaviour in school really is no different to how it always has been anyway ; young people have been demonised in the media throughout this history of time). I could go on: the way women are treated, how we deal with mental health, etc...

Anyway, none of the above has much to do with the thread and the government's response, or lack of, to the pandemic. Just wanted to make my two cents worth

 

[vegster]

35+ years of vilifying people on benefits, and the journey toward Universal Credit and a system designed to hassle people into work, not provide support. This has been done by both left and right - 'I'm alright Jack' Sun readers and sneering Guardian readers are both to blame. Benefit fraud = front page news in this country. Too many people therefore are looked down on by both society and the state. They are made to feel lesser equals. Too many people grow up with the ambition of simply wanting to win the lottery or marry a footballer. What is the state and society to a lot of people now? Why should they care?


The years of austerity and what that has done to public services and their capability to deal with the current crisis. People voted for this, as you say though. They want Scandinavian style public services, but they 'aint paying for it or voting for anyone who might propose doing it.

:

More people receive benefits these days while working than for not working. Years of erosion of workers rights and poor pay have lead us to a whole tranche of society working their nuts off to stand still. If those at the bottom were paid The Living Wage it's possible they might become contributors to the overall tax income for the country leading to better services. Pay those at the bottom more and it will inevitably be put back in to the economy, reward those at the top and they just move it out of reach of the tax man.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Too many working class thinking they're middle class and middle class thinking they're upper class. Things will never change.

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

 

[GT49er]

I'm going to stick my neck out here as someone who regards Boris with deep loathing.

I don't think he has done anything that warrants him being pilloried. His instincts may have been different from Gove's, but so what?

Well said. And of course, Gove's instincts have always been to stab in the back. It was Gove's 'instincts' that landed us with Theresa May as PM too, remember? Nasty little shit - makes Boris quite likeable by comparison .................

Another point that many of Boris' critics are missing is this. Maybe with hindsight (that wonderful science which all governments worldwide have had since the beginning of time! ) we should have gone into lockdown three or four weeks earlier - but what would have happened if the government had announced that then? The CBI would come out in open revolt and advise its members to defy the government - and, with the city would have brought pressure on their conservative MPs not to vote it through. Labour and Lib Dems and every other rag-tag and bobtail party would have voted against it 'to protect jobs'. The PL would have carried on ('It's all out in the open air, what's the problem?)
And the general public? To a man (and woman) they'd have said, 'F*** that, they aren't going to stop me going to the pub or eating out or going away for the weekend -we've had all this fuss before about SARS and bird-flu and that was a storm in a teacup'.
Then what? Imagine the police trying to arrest everybody having a Friday night out in Brighton, clearing out pubs, arresting families on the beach - anarchy, chaos, civil disorder and almost revolution. It had to be introduced slowly, as it was - it probably needed that mad weekend when thousands flocked to the seaside and beauty spots to make it happen.

Agree with the rest of your post too.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well said. And of course, Gove's instincts have always been to stab in the back. It was Gove's 'instincts' that landed us with Theresa May as PM too, remember? Nasty little shit - makes Boris quite likeable by comparison .................

Another point that many of Boris' critics are missing is this. Maybe with hindsight (that wonderful science which all governments worldwide have had since the beginning of time! ) we should have gone into lockdown three or four weeks earlier - but what would have happened if the government had announced that then? The CBI would come out in open revolt and advise its members to defy the government - and, with the city would have brought pressure on their conservative MPs not to vote it through. Labour and Lib Dems and every other rag-tag and bobtail party would have voted against it 'to protect jobs'. The PL would have carried on ('It's all out in the open air, what's the problem?)
And the general public? To a man (and woman) they'd have said, 'F*** that, they aren't going to stop me going to the pub or eating out or going away for the weekend -we've had all this fuss before about SARS and bird-flu and that was a storm in a teacup'.
Then what? Imagine the police trying to arrest everybody having a Friday night out in Brighton, clearing out pubs, arresting families on the beach - anarchy, chaos, civil disorder and almost revolution. It had to be introduced slowly, as it was - it probably needed that mad weekend when thousands flocked to the seaside and beauty spots to make it happen.

Agree with the rest of your post too.

That is some imagination. Maybe you've missed your vocation

 

[ManOfSussex]

Superb post, all the more impressive because you wrote it so quickly - a stream of consciousness.

Although I agree with you in most respects, I think it is too easy to come down hard on the current population, and I feel that to an extent you view the community of the past through rose tinted spectacles.

The 1960s, 70s and 80s I grew up in had a streak of bullying localism in it derived from ignorance. Ignorance was due to lack of opportunity for (or interest in) mixing. Our information sources were very limited. Our aspirations (I have a working class background) were narrow.

Listen to Billy Bragg's early recordings in the 80s. He captured working class aspirations perfectly. For working class women in particular. My mum escaped poverty through marriage, and behaved accordingly. Consequently my dad lived as he understood his place as 'head of the household'. In many respects it was Dickensian. The idea that my mum and dad could be part of a community working together for the good of friends and neighbours is laughable. Fear. Knowing their place. Caught in the no man's land between the old Victorian terraced house world (in my mum's case) and the frightening world of suburbia, my pink half of the drainpipe, peeping through the net curtains at the neighbours.....

No. It is better today. Where I live, the houses are not as nice as my mum and dad's in Portslade in the 60s and 70s. But people here are considerate, cosmopolitan, reflective, open to new things.

I'd like to think we have more hope than perhaps you imagine.

Anyway, time I buggered off to do family things.

All the best from Sunny Faversham, and a glass half full

I've had my sandwich, it was very nice by the way, because I always use ketchup and Nandos sauce when I do a toasted bacon and egg sandwich, and my glass will be full to the brim tonight with dinner, but I take your point. I certainly think the world I entered adulthood in - the 1990's - was a far better one than where we are now. Far better. The cold war was over. The troubles were coming to an end. Racism and other prejudices were far less than the preceding decades that you mention above and have improved further as we got to the here and now. Apartheid had ended etc, etc. The world was opening up. Former colonies were now developing nations, not 3rd world countries and pawns to be used in the proxy cold war. The standard of living across the world was improving. There was genuinely so much hope and expectation around at the turn of this century when we entered it.

Some things are better now, but with everything that has happened this century and what we're going through now and over the last 10 years, I'm afraid I just do not like the 21st century and it's barely even begun. The London Olympics was a blip in an otherwise downward trajectory post 2000 in this country for me. The standard of living pre financial crisis was better than now, but you had the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Islamist terrorism taking hold and having to contend with to offset some of that. The IRA were nutters and they completely lost the plot with Enniskillen and everything afterwards, but they didn't do 9/11 or 7/7 or Madrid etc, etc. We infiltrated their army council. We didn't have an entire Caliphate to deal with.

Was 1995 better than 2005? Not sure, it's debatable, but they were both better than 2020. So was 2015, but that was worse than 2014, but better than 2016.

I dread to think how bad this could get both here and across the world because of Covid-19 in terms of the economic aftermath and what that will do to living standards, let alone the health implications. Where will the political fall out lead us? What will the rest of this century be like? We had populism and climate change to look forward to and contend with anyway, but now we've got this too.

There are great examples of kindness and compassion and people rallying round, but this lock-down is unprecedented and ultimately utter hell for a lot of people. Nothing is certain in life, never has been and never will be, but I'm pretty certain I don't like the 21st century. I'm being objective in that assertion too, personal events are excluded from forming that conclusion.

Anyway, back on topic, I hope the weather is aiding the Prime Minister's recovery at Chequer's and that he hasn't read The Sunday Times today as I have.

 

[GT49er]

Older person in 'society isn't what it used to be' shocker. Throughout this pandemic I have heard an incredible amount of stories of human kindness in this country, and personally witnessed an awful lot of kindness and generosity. As has everyone I know. Over 750,000 people signed up to be NHS volunteers. That's an awful lot of people.

Though there are flaws (and always will be), society is so much better off nowadays in many ways too. Ask a gay person or ethnic minority person if they thought society was better in the 70s and 80s, for example. Brexit happened, but that doesn't mean we're not 100 times more tolerant as a society than we were through the decades you grew up. We actually give children and young people a voice nowadays, much different to teaching methods of old. We actually try to understand why children might be misbehaving in school - understand their home life, etc, rather than just giving them a good old thrashing (behaviour in school really is no different to how it always has been anyway ; young people have been demonised in the media throughout this history of time). I could go on: the way women are treated, how we deal with mental health, etc...

Anyway, none of the above has much to do with the thread and the government's response, or lack of, to the pandemic. Just wanted to make my two cents worth

Oh dear, Woke'R'Us by the look of it. Let's sneer at old people because now we're much more tolerant with the LGBT people, with the BAME community, more equality for women, yes, so the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago, you stupid old gits .......................
So who do you think, back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were the people campaigning for gay rights, marching with Martin Luther King and protesting against racism in this country, supporting equal rights for women - and getting these things passed into law through parliament, as well as changing public opinion about such causes?

Well, blow me down, all that wonderful work must have been done by people who were alive in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I suspect they'll all be getting on a bit by now............

 

[BN41Albion]

Oh dear, Woke'R'Us by the look of it. Let's sneer at old people because now we're much more tolerant with the LGBT people, with the BAME community, more equality for women, yes, so the world is a better place than it was 50 years ago, you stupid old gits .......................
So who do you think, back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, were the people campaigning for gay rights, marching with Martin Luther King and protesting against racism in this country, supporting equal rights for women - and getting these things passed into law trough parliament, as well as changing public opinion about such causes?

Well, blow me down, all that wonderful work must have been done by people who were alive in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I suspect they'll all be getting on a bit by now............

I'm really not that young. But yeah, I agree of course that people were campaigning through those decades, but it was largely people part of those groups, because a society at large - as we're talking about - were on the whole discriminating against said groups (gay pride, women's rights, etc) . That's not to say discrimination hasn't gone away, of course it hasn't, but we're in a far, far better place now.

I'm really not saying all older people have the view that society was better in their younger days, and I'll admit I was a bit silly to write that in my previous post (especially afterwards realised he/she is only about 10 a decade older than I am!) but it has certainly been a theme throughout history. My point really was to disagree that society is any better or worse than it ever has been. Some things are better, some worse, as it has and always will be.

 

[GT49er]

I'm going to stick mine out as well then, as this is the appropriate thread for such things. Society has changed massively from the one I was born in and grew up in during the 1970's and 1980's. Community spirit and social conscience are not what they are. A lady that wasn't for turning started it............ /

/................Anyway, I think I'm now going to make myself a nice toasted, bacon and egg sandwich for lunch. I'll obviously wash my hands thoroughly with soap and hot water and sing the national anthem first though.

We probably don't agree very often, but that's an excellent post. Spot on.

 

[GT49er]

I'm really not that young. But yeah, I agree of course that people were campaigning through those decades, but it was largely people part of those groups, because a society at large - as we're talking about - were on the whole discriminating against said groups (gay pride, women's rights, etc) . That's not to say discrimination hasn't gone away, of course it hasn't, but we're in a far, far better place now.

I'm really not saying all older people have the view that society was better in their younger days, and I'll admit I was a bit silly to write that in my previous post (especially afterwards realised he/she is only about 10 a decade older than I am!) but it has certainly been a theme throughout history. My point really was to disagree that society is any better or worse than it ever has been. Some things are better, some worse, as it has and always will be.

OK, I'll retract the 'woke'!

 

[Acker79]

I hadn't seen the full article at 00.44. Could see it was causing a stir on Twitter though.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean for my post to sound accusatory, more to build on what you had posted with further info.


I've seen one of the responses to the owen jones thread which includes a link to the article in an archive, so not behind a paywall, if anyone is interested: https://archive.is/20200418182037/h...n-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

More people receive benefits these days while working than for not working. Years of erosion of workers rights and poor pay have lead us to a whole tranche of society working their nuts off to stand still. If those at the bottom were paid The Living Wage it's possible they might become contributors to the overall tax income for the country leading to better services. Pay those at the bottom more and it will inevitably be put back in to the economy, reward those at the top and they just move it out of reach of the tax man.

It is not just low pay but what you get for your money. Here's a good article though a few years old

https://www.theguardian.com/money/b...-pay-people-earned-less-but-could-afford-more

I would suggest back in the 60's the poor were likely to be even poorer than today in relative terms as there's more help these days as such. The main issue now is that of affordable homes. This is truly the biggest problem facing most people today. The comparative costs are so much higher these days. Every government of recent times have failed to deal with it and that alone is totally unfair.

Food has come down in relative terms but there's now the expectation of other goods as must haves, such as mobiles, computers and alike which society expects all to have. The demands on everyone's money is greater than the simple expectations of yesteryear.

What is happening currently will hopefully focus minds, not be so reliant on other countries, look after all of us better, and stop the extortion by huge organisations. We need a fair but massive housing building program designed to give good sized homes, affordable by the many.

 

[Swansman]

What is happening currently will hopefully focus minds, not be so reliant on other countries, look after all of us better, and stop the extortion by huge organisations. We need a fair but massive housing building program designed to give good sized homes, affordable by the many.

Its also possible at least a bit of the housing problem (which seems to be prominent all over the Western world) with solve itself as the big number of people born in the late 40s are going to slowly... move along, so to speak.

 

[GT49er]

I'm really not that young. But yeah, I agree of course that people were campaigning through those decades, but it was largely people part of those groups, because a society at large - as we're talking about - were on the whole discriminating against said groups (gay pride, women's rights, etc) . That's not to say discrimination hasn't gone away, of course it hasn't, but we're in a far, far better place now.

I'm really not saying all older people have the view that society was better in their younger days, and I'll admit I was a bit silly to write that in my previous post (especially afterwards realised he/she is only about 10 a decade older than I am!) but it has certainly been a theme throughout history. My point really was to disagree that society is any better or worse than it ever has been. Some things are better, some worse, as it has and always will be.

Looking at that first paragraph again, another thought occurred to me - having been on my fair share of protests and campaigns for some of those causes - and that is that I remember there were always a lot of other young idealistic white heterosexual males there, as well as me!

 

[Machiavelli]

There is too much of the blame game going on right now. It does not matter what happen in February and March . The fact is that we are where we are and have to fight on. We are fighting a war. Governments are making decisions as they go and we are uncharted territory. Where would we have got in WW2 if they had kept looking backwards at things that could have been done better?
Get the P M back at the helm and I believe that the presentation of it all will improve.

Churchill begged to differ, and ousted the sitting PM. We need to get over this awful current predicament but once the plateau is showing sure signs of a downward curve, it's time that we made a serious decision.

 

[Jim D]

Churchill begged to differ, and ousted the sitting PM. We need to get over this awful current predicament but once the plateau is showing sure signs of a downward curve, it's time that we made a serious decision.

You don't change horses when you're winning the war, you do it when you're losing.

 

[Machiavelli]

[tweet]1251780661146509312[/tweet]

Didn't we have to endure the Johnson/Gove Brutus act in 2016? And they say history doesn't repeat itself

 

[beorhthelm]

Food has come down in relative terms but there's now the expectation of other goods as must haves, such as mobiles, computers and alike which society expects all to have. The demands on everyone's money is greater than the simple expectations of yesteryear.

really shouldnt down play this part of the standard of living story. the basics are much cheaper, and just because we have more to spend money on doesn't mean we dont have more money, relative to those previous decades.

 

[Swansman]

And they say history doesn't repeat itself

... they do?

 

[Machiavelli]

What the hell is a ****flute?

Someone you stick up for?