[Football] Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield will go on trial *** Not Guilty ***

[Thunder Bolt]

Hmmm, Manslaughter? Difficult to attribute this to one person. Perverting the course of justice would be a more likely conviction, but we'll see the evidence I suppose

There are three others charged with that.

 

[Birdie Boy]

You did not misread it Trigs, it was definitely changed as I read the same originally and wondered the same thing.

I read it as commentator at first as well..

 

[vegster]

It is very obvious that an incident was allowed to blow up in to a tragedy, as has been reported at inquests and the investigation, there were delays and inaction which led to many deaths. I like to think that justice will be done when everything is put before the court. The relatives of the 96 deserve to hear what he has to say in court.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sure the lieing, but he's not being tried on that, so put it to one side.

He's a public servant, put in charge of handling the crowds and he had to make a judgement call at very short notice under huge pressure. He was empowered to make a decision, which I presume he did to the best of his ability. It turns out he made the wrong call. It doesn't feel like something that someone should be sent to prison for. Are we now going to have the Grenfell fire chief tried and imprisoned for not recommending an evacuation earlier?

Wrong decisions in the line of duty are regularly made, we have enquiries, work out what went wrong, and improve procedures and training. Its risky to embark on witch hunts, or the next police commander to make a tragic error is also going to lie and cover it up.

The chap who has given evidence so far is the Watch Manager (the same as my son). As soon as the command goes out Make pumps 6, then it is out of his remit and an Area Commander should have been put in charge. Grenfell was unique as the cladding rendered all previous training in tower blocks completely useless. Stay put should work when dry risers work, fire doors are the correct safety doors and fires can be contained within a flat or a floor.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Duckenfield made a monumental mistake with terrible consequences and then lied to cover up for his error for many years, amplifying the pain and suffering for the many affected by the tragedy.

There is a big "what if...?" with Hillsborough though isn't there? Duckenfield shouldn't have been in charge on that day. A horrible example of wrong place/wrong time >>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-27779353

This is now subjudice.

 

[Easy 10]

It turns out he made the wrong call.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I've spoken to a couple of friends who are fire officers, and the way tower blocks are designed (including Grenfell), the advice to stay put is sound - assuming that the correct procedures and safety measures are put in place by those who are supposed to do so.

The issue here is that the narrative appears to be heading ONLY towards the fire officer's advice, and not towards the circumstances which led to the start of the fire and the subsequent inferno. In short, we're getting a kind of inquiry which is not dissimilar to the first Hillsborough inquest, which included the totally arbitrary '3.15 cut off point' to announce everyone who had died that day had done so by that time - something which was proven to be false later.

If you're going to draw a parallel between Grenfell and Hillsborough, then it would mean those responsible for the construction of the building in question should be brought to book - and many people believe that should be the case. However, nearly everyone who was at Sheffield Wednesday back then has since passed on.

The inquiry has only been going a short while, and other details and other areas may be examined later in the process, time will tell and hopefully every avenue is explored properly.

However the stay put procedure appears to have directly contributed to the deaths of some of the victims, it doesn't mean that the procedure was wrong (it should have worked if not for the building materials failures that meant the fire wasn't contained within the building as it was designed) or that the fire brigade leading the response were wrong, but the inquiry may examine if this is the best practice to have in place in future should a fire break out again in another similar building. It doesn't necessarily mean that the blame is put on the commanders for failing to evacuate earlier (however, once it was obvious that the fire containment system in the building design had failed, should the response have changed and the evacuation been ordered earlier?)

BTW - I thought that they had already covered the start of the fire recently, and the actions of the occupant of the flat as a part of the inquiry so it is not just a case of looking at a single narrative, these things take time if they are to be done properly and lets hope this one will be. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...flat-fire-started-demands-exoneration-racist/

 

[The Large One]

The inquiry has only been going a short while, and other details and other areas may be examined later in the process, time will tell and hopefully every avenue is explored properly.

However the stay put procedure appears to have directly contributed to the deaths of some of the victims, it doesn't mean that the procedure was wrong (it should have worked if not for the building materials failures that meant the fire wasn't contained within the building as it was designed) or that the fire brigade leading the response were wrong, but the inquiry may examine if this is the best practice to have in place in future should a fire break out again in another similar building. It doesn't necessarily mean that the blame is put on the commanders for failing to evacuate earlier (however, once it was obvious that the fire containment system in the building design had failed, should the response have changed and the evacuation been ordered earlier?)

BTW - I thought that they had already covered the start of the fire recently, and the actions of the occupant of the flat as a part of the inquiry so it is not just a case of looking at a single narrative, these things take time if they are to be done properly and lets hope this one will be. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...flat-fire-started-demands-exoneration-racist/

I guess it depends on when that moment occurred and what status the entire building was in. Don't forget - this happened so much quicker than fire brigades are used to in this country. There is an assumption that public safety carries its own legal weight and responsibility. This now doesn't seem to be the central driving issue here - blame does. And blame for political advantage / disadvantage.

In other words, it has the feel of Hillsborough / Orgreave all over again. But as you say - we should wait for all of the questioning to take place.

 

[LVGull]

Then don't be a tw@. I misread it, nothing more.

Don’t worry Trig I’m with you.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Back on topic, lets hope that justice is done in this case, and it too doesn't become a 'political?' prosecution and a kind of we need a scapegoat to pin this on and he will do as the public demand justice and need to have someone pay for this. (justice needs to be seen to be done, even if it is not proper justice)

Hopefully he gets a fair trial and there are o preconceived ideas about him and that things were at the time are considered and so people do not compare this incident to how a modern match would have been managed (things like a lack of radios hampering communication, the football culture at the time and the real threat of hooliganism and the effects on how any match was commanded at the time, did he brief the officers on duty and they fail to follow his direction around safety or was this something where they only ever considered hooliganism as a part of their role and never even gave fan safety a second thought, was he properly trained or briefed (especially if he was a late stand in?) etc....

If he acted negligently, and failed to do his job, which contributed to the outcome, them he should be held accountable for his actions or in-actions on the day.

 

[Triggaaar]

Don’t worry Trig I’m with you.

Ok, I thought you were saying I swerved it with quick thinking, which wasn't the case.

 

[TomandJerry]

So you're saying the OP said commentator to start with, then edited it?

Could TomandJerry or a mod confirm? My honour is at stake here.

I have not personally changed the title to the thread.

 

[LVGull]

Ok, I thought you were saying I swerved it with quick thinking, which wasn't the case.

You called me a T**T lol.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

People make mistakes, if a mistake leads to he death of 96 you should be punished. I can understand why he may of made a mistake under the stress of the situation, if he held his hands up and showed remorse a short custodial sentence would have sufficed, after all he would have to live with the guilt. However this man has shown no remorse, he has been arrogant, evasive, deceitful and shown contempt for the victims. He has prolonged the pain and to an extent not allowed the families of the 96 to grieve during their fight for justice. A truly despicable man, lock him away and never let him see the light of day again. Total scum. Justice for the 96.

 

[sir albion]

How is he alleged to have contributed to the tragedy?

Spot on....People made mistakes and fans of Liverpool made mistakes and someone has to take the blame to appease the family's.Nobody on that day intended to contribute to all those deaths and that's why it's a tragedy.
To blame one bloke is just bloody ridiculous as he did what he thought was best at the time.

 

[sir albion]

People make mistakes, if a mistake leads to he death of 96 you should be punished. I can understand why he may of made a mistake under the stress of the situation, if he held his hands up and showed remorse a short custodial sentence would have sufficed, after all he would have to live with the guilt. However this man has shown no remorse, he has been arrogant, evasive, deceitful and shown contempt for the victims. He has prolonged the pain and to an extent not allowed the families of the 96 to grieve during their fight for justice. A truly despicable man, lock him away and never let him see the light of day again. Total scum. Justice for the 96.

You could say the same about grenfell as it was caused by a probable electric overload or dodgy washing machine yet now you have firefighters being blamed and all sorts.
Tragedies will always happen and we must learn from them but to keep blaming all sorts of people is just insane.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

Spot on....People made mistakes and fans of Liverpool made mistakes and someone has to take the blame to appease the family's.Nobody on that day intended to contribute to all those deaths and that's why it's a tragedy.
To blame one bloke is just bloody ridiculous as he did what he thought was best at the time.

I suggest you do some research, how the hell can you blame the Liverpool fans ? Are you still influenced by the crap printed by the sun ? Unbelievable.

 

[Weststander]

Spot on....People made mistakes and fans of Liverpool made mistakes and someone has to take the blame to appease the family's.Nobody on that day intended to contribute to all those deaths and that's why it's a tragedy.
To blame one bloke is just bloody ridiculous as he did what he thought was best at the time.

Thank god you have no real say in legal processes that decide either way.

Views based on petty/tribal prejudices as to who hate. Sad.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You could say the same about grenfell as it was caused by a probable electric overload or dodgy washing machine yet now you have firefighters being blamed and all sorts.
Tragedies will always happen and we must learn from them but to keep blaming all sorts of people is just insane.

It was a fridge, but the wealthy people in Kensington didn't like the tower block being an eyesore, so the council put cladding on it. Cladding that wasn't fireproof, and spread up the outside of the building, with plastic windows which melted and allowed the flames to enter into each and every flat.
Yes, the builders and the council are to blame, and so must face criminal charges.

You have blamed the Liverpool fans all the time even though the inquest ruled that not one of them was to blame. It's time to face the truth and stop posting tripe.

https://nortr3nixy.nimpr.uk/showthread.php?337184-Hillsborough-verdict-Fans-unlawfully-killed

 

[Weststander]

It was a fridge, but the wealthy people in Kensington didn't like the tower block being an eyesore, so the council put cladding on it. Cladding that wasn't fireproof, and spread up the outside of the building, with plastic windows which melted and allowed the flames to enter into each and every flat.
Yes, the builders and the council are to blame, and so must face criminal charges.

You have blamed the Liverpool fans all the time even though the inquest ruled that not one of them was to blame. It's time to face the truth and stop posting tripe.

Well said.