[Football] Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield will go on trial *** Not Guilty ***

[wellquickwoody]

I can't believe I have read this, to be honest. You need to do a bit of reading on the subject. Did drunken fans urinate on the dead (as stated by the police and reported in The Sun?). Did Maradonna handle the ball in that game or not? The truth is somewhere between the two I guess.

The cover up was orchestrated. Who orchestrated it and why? Who ordered countless police officers to change their witness statements? Who authorized mendacious leaks to The Sun? My hypothesis is that either the man at the top organized it or he negligently allowed his junior officers to do so. A court case will find the truth.

The 'team' involved were the same lackies who 'managed' the miners' strike. My dad who was socially conservative (always on the side of the authorities) and politically disinterested was shocked and ashamed by the behaviour of the police, and that was on the strength of the highly partial reporting of the strike on the evening news. Yes it was a different time. A disgraceful time.

I am please the man is being prosecuted. The 'it was all a long time ago' argument is quite inappropriate in this case.

The lies and the cover up were wrong, end, no discussion. Does cause of the tragedy lay exclusively on one man? Certainly not.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Evidence heard in court is open to cross examination by the defence lawyers and for a jury to decide.

Correct, for a group of people to decide............and juries never make errors now do they?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The lies and the cover up were wrong, end, no discussion. Does cause of the tragedy lay exclusively on one man? Certainly not.

That's for the court to decide.

 

[wellquickwoody]

That's for the court to decide.

I refer you to post number #102 M'Lady.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The lies and the cover up were wrong, end, no discussion. Does cause of the tragedy lay exclusively on one man? Certainly not.

I agre with you. But that is not justification for not putting the man in charge on trial. If he is acquitted so be it. Putting 'the boss' on trial for the equivalent of 'corporate manslaughter' is perfectly reasonable, and these days should act as an incentive to ensure that appropriate decisions are made.

Related to that, someone should go on trial for creating the management culture in the London fire service that resulted in the delays and inappropriate advice given to those poor buggers who burned to death in that block of flats. For the sake of avoiding a repeat.

Anyway, I doubt we actually disagree about this so no point my pursung a faux argument just because I am argumentative (ahem). Personally I am perpetually grateful to be alive and relatively well. Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[rogersix]

I refer you to post number #102 M'Lady.

tell us all about your system then, my liege.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's mentioned here in David Conn's report. It is difficult when the inquests into 96 deaths which took two years to pinpoint the exact detail from the court, but this definitely says ticketless fans were fiction.

"This fiction, that fans without tickets had forced the gate, had already found its way to the BBC, reported as a version by John Motson, the television match commentator, at 3.13pm. Alan Green, commentator for BBC Radio 2, broadcast an unconfirmed report of “a broken-down door” at 3.40pm, then at 4.30pm he reported that police had said “a gate was forced” – the police story of misbehaviour settling on the initial public consciousness."

So in other words, no, there's no proof at all that there weren't some ticketless fans there. Of course there would have been. There always were at least some at FA cup semi-finals with big clubs. What did happen was a load of BS was told by the authorities that the disaster was caused by a mass of ticketless fans forcing their way through gates, which clearly wasn't true. But now the truth has come out, don't misread it as saying there were no fans without tickets at all, because that's not correct.

Another link here reporting Duckenfield admitted he lied when he said fans gained unauthorised admittance.

Yep. Disgraceful. He's not the only one that should be prosecuted. Our whole government have treated football fans like criminals, and it still hasn't completely stopped.

 

[Triggaaar]

The Hillsborough inquests were conducted at a very different place in time. As much as fans were wrongly blamed in the immediate aftermath and subsequent few years, the inquests were conducted in a time where the battle for hearts and minds had overwhelmingly been won by a lengthy and orchestrated campaign, JTF96. In all probability the truth lies somewhere between the two.

I think that suggesting it lies in between the two is extremely misleading. From the evidence available, it seems that the entire blame lies with the authorities, not half them and half the fans.

I'm sure back at the Goldstone I got involved in a bit of pushing once or twice, along with a crowd of fans. If I'd have gone to a big game without a ticket (which I have also done, hoping to find someone with a spare I could buy), and the gates had been opened, I'd have seen that as my chance to get in, and I'd have tried to push my way in if others were doing the same. It would never have occurred to me that my actions could contribute to a disaster, but I realise now that in a certain set of circumstances, that could have happened.

A badly designed stadium, with poor actions taken by officials, can predictably lead to pushing from fans, which could cause a disaster.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So in other words, no, there's no proof at all that there weren't some ticketless fans there. Of course there would have been. There always were at least some at FA cup semi-finals with big clubs. What did happen was a load of BS was told by the authorities that the disaster was caused by a mass of ticketless fans forcing their way through gates, which clearly wasn't true. But now the truth has come out, don't misread it as saying there were no fans without tickets at all, because that's not correct.


Yep. Disgraceful. He's not the only one that should be prosecuted. Our whole government have treated football fans like criminals, and it still hasn't completely stopped.

Show me documentary evidence for your opinion, rather than 'there must have been'. That's just supposition.

Interesting testimonies about freemasonry in the police, closing ranks, meetings, and a Merseyside copper, who attended the match as a Liverpool fan.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ed-to-blame-drunken-ticketless-liverpool-fans

 

[The Large One]

The Hillsborough inquests were conducted at a very different place in time. As much as fans were wrongly blamed in the immediate aftermath and subsequent few years, the inquests were conducted in a time where the battle for hearts and minds had overwhelmingly been won by a lengthy and orchestrated campaign, JTF96. In all probability the truth lies somewhere between the two.

You are, of course, making this up as you go along - fabricating your own meaningless narrative, with little or no consideration for the facts.

 

[Triggaaar]

Show me documentary evidence for your opinion, rather than 'there must have been'. That's just supposition.

I'm happy to take it as supposition, rather than a proven fact. I'm not trying to prove it. It would have been mighty strange if no one turned up without a ticket though. Basically unheard of.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm happy to take it as supposition, rather than a proven fact. I'm not trying to prove it. It would have been mighty strange if no one turned up without a ticket though. Basically unheard of.

Are you able to accept the police admitted, under oath, they were told to blame the tragedy on drunken ticketless fans, regardless of the truth?

 

[drew]

Show me documentary evidence for your opinion, rather than 'there must have been'. That's just supposition.

Interesting testimonies about freemasonry in the police, closing ranks, meetings, and a Merseyside copper, who attended the match as a Liverpool fan.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ed-to-blame-drunken-ticketless-liverpool-fans

Equally you can't provide documentary proof that there were no ticketless fans as it would have been necessary to identify and interview every single person that was there and that didn't happen. If there were no ticketless fans arriving at football matches then there would be no ticket touts. At that time, touting was common practice so it is not beyond the realms of probability that at a major match like the FA Cup semi, there would be a number of ticketless fans. What I understand the inquiry came to conclude was that ticketless fans did not cause or contribute to the catastrophe. It's the same with regard to drunkeness. I can't recall not having been to a match in 40 years where someone hasn't been worse for wear but again the inquiry was happy that this did not contribute to the disaster.

 

[drew]

That's for the court to decide.

You can of course express an opinion! The Police handled the developing situation badly but the design of the stadium, lack of (I believe) a valid safety certificate, the FA allocating the match to this venue when aware of similar previous issues etc etc. Then there is of course the subsequent cover up.

 

[The Large One]

Show me documentary evidence for your opinion, rather than 'there must have been'. That's just supposition.

Interesting testimonies about freemasonry in the police, closing ranks, meetings, and a Merseyside copper, who attended the match as a Liverpool fan.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ed-to-blame-drunken-ticketless-liverpool-fans

From the Taylor Report 1989...

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124. I recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

The "Conspiracy" Theory

203. On behalf of South Yorkshire police, the theory was advanced that the "late" arrival of so many Liverpool supporters was planned to buck the system. The suggestion was that fans without tickets conspired to arrive late and create such trouble as would force the police to admit them to the match. The slender evidence upon which this theory rested came from two sources: overheard conversations in public houses and the antecedent history of Liverpool supporters at away matches.

204. One witness said he heard three Liverpool supporters saying, in effect, that they would manage to get in without tickets by causing trouble so that police would open a gate, and that they had done this before. Another witness heard two of a group of Liverpool supporters say they had no tickets, that they would go to the ground just before kick-off, that no-one would stop them getting in and that they had not been stopped yet. Statements were put in relating to two other small groups talking in similar terms.

Liverpool Supporters at Away Matches

205. The South Yorkshire police prepared a dossier of reports on the behaviour of Liverpool fans at away matches with the object of showing a pattern of troublesome behaviour by large numbers either without tickets or with forged tickets. Without setting out the whole history, it can be summarised as follows.

206. On three occasions Liverpool fans without tickets were allowed into all-ticket matches upon payment. (At Watford on 13 February 1988, 1,500 were admitted; at Southampton on 24 September 1988, 150 were admitted; at Southampton again on 12 December 1988, 750 were admitted.) At Norwich on 1 April 1989, Liverpool supporters arrived without tickets but 1,272 tickets had been returned and fans from both Liverpool and Norwich were allowed to buy them for cash. A similar situation occurred at Wimbledon on 13 May 1989. There were six other occasions from 1986 to date, including the Cup finals of 1986 and 1989, when numbers of Liverpool supporters turned up without tickets or otherwise behaved badly.

207. Four points must be noted, however. On none of the occasions when ticketless fans were admitted for payment was the match a sell-out. There was therefore room in the ground on each occasion. At a sell-out fans 35 might not expect to be allowed in, even for payment. Secondly, no trouble of the kind alleged was encountered at the 1988 semi-final when Liverpool visited Hillsborough. Thirdly, Liverpool visited Hillsborough again in January 1989 without any trouble. Finally, no forged tickets were in use on 15 April apart from three crude photocopies.

No Conspiracy

208. I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the "conspiracy" theory. I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30pm to 2.50pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles.

 

[Triggaaar]

Are you able to accept the police admitted, under oath, they were told to blame the tragedy on drunken ticketless fans, regardless of the truth?

Are you actually reading my posts, or just seeing the odd word and getting outraged?

Those that died and their friends and families have been let down by both the people in charge at the time, and the lies and reporting since.

The police lied and pretended that thousands of drunk ticket-less fans were to blame.

 

[wellquickwoody]

You are, of course, making this up as you go along - fabricating your own meaningless narrative, with little or no consideration for the facts.

Oh and here comes Whoopie Goldberg to back up Mother Superior, bore off.

 

[sir albion]

I'm happy to take it as supposition, rather than a proven fact. I'm not trying to prove it. It would have been mighty strange if no one turned up without a ticket though. Basically unheard of.

In those days you'd get thousands turning up for big games but you'll be told that's not possible

 

[The Large One]

Oh and here comes Whoopie Goldberg to back up Mother Superior, bore off.

A post with absolutely no meaning. You don't know what you're on about - so why keep broadcasting that fact?

 

[Bolton va va]

I'm happy to take it as supposition, rather than a proven fact. I'm not trying to prove it. It would have been mighty strange if no one turned up without a ticket though. Basically unheard of.

Almost as strange as every single supporter being stone cold sober.