[News] Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II Passes Away - 08/09/2022

[Weststander]

Mostly it’s a matter of principle. I would prefer a system where a head of state is elected.
Secondly, if you name heads of state where it goes wrong - I.e Trump - with us it just goes down to the next level - Johnson, for example.
Thirdly, and most importantly for me, the monarchy is a symbol of most of what is wrong with this country - not the people who come to the fore as Queens and Kings, but the mere existence of the institution. Will Hutton wrote a book decades ago called “the State we’re in” which argued that it is part of the whole thing which includes deference to people who went to public schools and Oxbridge. It’s why we will never be a meritocracy.

I agree with Will Hutton about Oxbridge, I’ve posted that on nsc many a time. It also extends to Durham Uni.

6% of UK kids go to independent schools. All 3 should have a cap imposed on them of a max 6% of UK entrants who’ve ever been to an independent school. I mention “ever” because there’s a common ruse, even in Sussex of sending kids private 4 to 16, then going to an outstanding state sixth form.

Over time I’m sure this would have an effect on who gets the top jobs, including in broadcasting! Plus far more kids from non privileged backgrounds would get world class tertiary education.

[I’m still pro a constitutional monarchy, until 100% convinced about an alternative. For me the pluses overweigh the criticisms].

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

In what way? Give them executive powers and it's a different ball game - and maybe not a good one (see under Trump, Putin, Pinochet et al). Don't give them executive powers, but just a ceremonial role,and you have royalty without the tradition, experience and status. And wthout the tourists.............

Who’d be hated by half the country. President Johnson, President Corbyn, President Blair. The UK doesn’t do consensus, always split down the middle on anything remotely political. Not a new phenomena, I was a kid in the 70’s with a daily diet of political and industrial strife on the news.

Nicky Campbell half-jokingly went through some candidates yesterday eg judges …. immediately all guests found major flaws such as considered a leftie, from the right.

As is your right. However I will never be convinced there’s a better democratic alternative. Our monarchy has been a force for good generally over many centuries. Meanwhile over in Republican corner we’ve had Napoleon, Hitler, Trump to name just a few heads of state…

Appreciate where you’re coming from. However l can’t ever see replacing the Monarchy as some cure all for inequality.

I wouldn’t see the replacement of the monarchy as a cure all for anything. In the Will Hutton stuff, it is just part of a whole system which he was considering to be holding the country back.

I don’t see it changing in a hurry, if at all, ever. I think more useful would be things like the curtailing of charitable status for private education, the abolition of closed scholarships at Oxbridge Colleges for certain schools, even a serious review of our exam system would be a start. Boris Johnson came up with the idea of levelling up. It’s a lot more fundamental than they think, and they haven’t got a clue as to how to do it.

But back to the thread title, in terms of what might have been said in the famous spoof history book 1066 and all that, Queen Elizabeth the second was “a good thing!!!!”

 

[Weststander]

We love London anyway and came up today. A gentle and friendly atmosphere everywhere, the lovely bit was seeing sweet messages from kids across the nation and beyond in St James’s Park.



An added bonus for us, we saw Larry the cat in Downing Street!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We love London anyway and came up today. A gentle and friendly atmosphere everywhere, the lovely bit was seeing sweet messages from kids across the nation and beyond in St James’s Park.

View attachment 151875

An added bonus for us, we saw Larry the cat in Downing Street!

Larry for PM!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The problem is, if you have two candidates who are awful and represent binary, partisan positions (let's call them Johnson and Corbyn or even Biden and Trump) then all you're ever doing is voting for the least worst candidate, with the country then beholden to a political position for the next x years that might actually be a minority view overall because of non-voting (let's call that "Brexit").

With a hereditary and ceremonial monarchy you know that you'll be getting a neutral Head of State who's largely there to bring in trade and tourist income. Have no doubt that some of Charles' outpourings as PoW were totally unsuitable to this role. There will have been men in black suits having a word with him about this for a lot longer than last week.

I like the current system in terms of Head of State as the least worst option (as opposed to electing the least worst president). Where I have an issue is using wealth and, quite possibly the public purse, to prop up wrong 'uns like Andrew. We should only be funding the Monarch, the Consort and the Prince (and Princess) of Wales as far as I'm concerned. Let the minor ones do something useful.

The Sovereign Grant only funded the sovereign and consort anyway. Senior Royals are paid for their stints from the SG.
The Prince & Princess of Wales are funded from the Duchy of Cornwall (which includes their offspring).

 

[Weststander]

I wouldn’t see the replacement of the monarchy as a cure all for anything. In the Will Hutton stuff, it is just part of a whole system which he was considering to be holding the country back.

I don’t see it changing in a hurry, if at all, ever. I think more useful would be things like the curtailing of charitable status for private education, the abolition of closed scholarships at Oxbridge Colleges for certain schools, even a serious review of our exam system would be a start. Boris Johnson came up with the idea of levelling up. It’s a lot more fundamental than they think, and they haven’t got a clue as to how to do it.

But back to the thread title, in terms of what might have been said in the famous spoof history book 1066 and all that, Queen Elizabeth the second was “a good thing!!!!”

I want to see almost all the changes you touch on, but I’m fine with a constitutional monarchy. I ‘get’ your/Hutton’s argument, but I think 2022 UK (and USA, France, Germany for example) are far more complex, the inequities in all 4 nations are based on matters unconnected to old money. There are a swathe of tax dodging billionaires who hold the real power and the gap’s getting worse. The leaked Liechtenstein, Swiss and Panama papers shone a rare light. Imho the Windsor’s are an unrelated side show, supported by 2/3’s or more of brits.

Independent schools and charitable status needs discussion. I personally have close knowledge of some Sussex schools that are a million miles away from Eton or Brighton College. Modest fees, no bequeathed dowries or cash reserves, where parents scrimp and scrape to get their kids with minor learning difficulties an education away from bullies and judgemental pushy teachers who favour their superstars. What does charitable status do for these small inclusive schools? Nothing. They don’t make a profit and they rarely receive donations. But they make a few kids confident.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The Sovereign Grant only funded the sovereign and consort anyway. Senior Royals are paid for their stints from the SG.
The Prince & Princess of Wales are funded from the Duchy of Cornwall (which includes their offspring).

And who funded Prince Andrew's legal bills?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And who funded Prince Andrew's legal bills?

The Queen out of her private money but that is derailing the thread.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Waited longer for concert tickets. Younger people have no stamina, and are used to instant click culture and constant entertainment. I’m sure waiting 12hrs is almost an violation of their human rights by comparison!

I’m not young and there is no way I would queue up for 12 hours.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

In what way? Give them executive powers and it's a different ball game - and maybe not a good one (see under Trump, Putin, Pinochet et al). Don't give them executive powers, but just a ceremonial role,and you have royalty without the tradition, experience and status. And wthout the tourists.............

Who’d be hated by half the country. President Johnson, President Corbyn, President Blair. The UK doesn’t do consensus, always split down the middle on anything remotely political. Not a new phenomena, I was a kid in the 70’s with a daily diet of political and industrial strife on the news.

Nicky Campbell half-jokingly went through some candidates yesterday eg judges …. immediately all guests found major flaws such as considered a leftie, from the right.

As is your right. However I will never be convinced there’s a better democratic alternative. Our monarchy has been a force for good generally over many centuries. Meanwhile over in Republican corner we’ve had Napoleon, Hitler, Trump to name just a few heads of state…

I agree with Will Hutton about Oxbridge, I’ve posted that on nsc many a time. It also extends to Durham Uni.

6% of UK kids go to independent schools. All 3 should have a cap imposed on them of a max 6% of UK entrants who’ve ever been to an independent school. I mention “ever” because there’s a common ruse, even in Sussex of sending kids private 4 to 16, then going to an outstanding state sixth form.

Over time I’m sure this would have an effect on who gets the top jobs, including in broadcasting! Plus far more kids from non privileged backgrounds would get world class tertiary education.

[I’m still pro a constitutional monarchy, until 100% convinced about an alternative. For me the pluses overweigh the criticisms].

I’ve just checked on the Charity Commission website and Eton College is a charity. It’s income last year was just short of £85,000,000. I would just like to know what it does to justify being classed as a charity. Maybe it really earns it, but maybe not.

Mrs DiS was the principal of a Sixth Form College until she retired 4 years ago. She made approaches to a local successful fee paying school on a couple of occasions about cooperation, which would have been beneficial for some of the more deprived students in the college. No chance, like getting blood out of a stone.

I’m aware of the sort of establishment you’re talking about - a world of difference.

 

[Weststander]

I’ve just checked on the Charity Commission website and Eton College is a charity. It’s income last year was just short of £85,000,000. I would just like to know what it does to justify being classed as a charity. Maybe it really earns it, but maybe not.

Mrs DiS was the principal of a Sixth Form College until she retired 4 years ago. She made approaches to a local successful fee paying school on a couple of occasions about cooperation, which would have been beneficial for some of the more deprived students in the college. No chance, like getting blood out of a stone.

I’m aware of the sort of establishment you’re talking about - a world of difference.

They do token stuff, always just enough, in working with deprived area schools or sharing sports facilities.

Anyway, I always like debating politics with you . With [MENTION=15734]harry[/MENTION] Wilson’s tackle, I get a classier level of non-spiteful ‘class warrior’ conversation, very wide knowledge and telling anecdotes

 

[herecomesaregular]

Mountains of flowers. I'll be told off but can't people spend this money on a donation to charity to do some good, rather than just pile them up?

 

[GT49er]

Mountains of flowers. I'll be told off but can't people spend this money on a donation to charity to do some good, rather than just pile them up?

Yes, but it's another good day for florists ........................

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Mountains of flowers. I'll be told off but can't people spend this money on a donation to charity to do some good, rather than just pile them up?

Why do people take flowers to a funeral or put them on graves?
How do you know these people haven’t done both? People who give to charity don’t tell anybody about it, so you wouldn’t know.
People also pay their respects in their own way.
You may not understand it. It it is what it is.

 

[Bakero]

Why do people take flowers to a funeral or put them on graves?
How do you know these people haven’t done both? People who give to charity don’t tell anybody about it, so you wouldn’t know.
People also pay their respects in their own way.
You may not understand it. It it is what it is.

Maybe they've also donated marmalade sandwiches to a food bank.

 

[GT49er]

Maybe they've also donated marmalade sandwiches to a food bank.

.....and maybe they've thought better than to chuck marmalade sandwiches into a foodbank, which would be not only stupid, but crass and rather insulting as well. "Oh, here you are, poor people, have a bit of charity, and do please be appropriately deferential and suitably grateful. Phwar, phwar!"

It is, though, another bloody good day for florists..............................

 

[Whoislloydy]

The Queen out of her private money but that is derailing the thread.

She only contributed 2m of her own money.

 

[Swansman]

She only contributed 2m of her own money.

From where did she get "her own money"?

 

[clapham_gull]

Why do people take flowers to a funeral or put them on graves?

They are doing nether though. This is huge piles of single use plastic, most of which will end up in landfill and the smell from the rotting flowers won't be nice.

Adding to that random cuddly toys, marmalade sandwiches and if Diana is anything to go by the odd rubber ET.

Someone will have to clear that all up.

It's what happens when people react to a media event.

 

[clapham_gull]

The Queen out of her private money but that is derailing the thread.

It was actually Charles and the Queen, the prime purpose to limit embarrassment during the Jubilee.

Appalling.