Has the High Court abolished school term time?

[Arrid]

If you've got kids and you can't afford to take them away during school holidays, then choose a holiday which you CAN afford for ****s sake. Crock of shit people not being able to "afford" a holiday - even spending time at home with your kids is a holiday. The problem is when the parents want an adult holiday, and want a holiday where Ruby and Oliver can be put in a "kids care" scheme, whilst Chantal (Mummy) and Gary (Daddy) can sit by the pool drinking.

If only life was that simple! And what a wonderful stereotype image of the UK holidaymaker & holiday you paint, made me chuckle.

 

[Berty23]

Our schools are so underfunded, so desperate for resources, premises, have had school fields built upon, have too larger class sizes, limited resource for children with particular requirements/assistance and you could go on and on. But what is sad is that people get their knickers in a twist about kids having the odd life enhancing and enriching family breaks in term time. We've all once again been hood winked in to thinking it's our fault. Consecutive governments have consistently cut and underfunded our education system and for a civilised comparatively wealthy nation our education of children is exceedingly average. But no lets criticise a parent for taking their children out of school for a week rather than the government treat our nations children with any real respect and provide facilities for a world class education system. The argument for term time absence has valid arguments on both sides, it is just a shame people are more animated about it than the actual quality of education their children receive.

You should read the book "bad education" Which is quite a lot like Ben goldacre's book bad science. It disproves ten or twelve common myths in education. You covered most of them above which is impressive my favourite being small class sizes. You do know that to improve results class size in primary would need to drop to about 15 don't you? That would pretty much double the cost of primary education which would need twice the amount of teachers. Where are these teachers going to come from? Oh I know pay people more. Push up all the wages!

You should look at the education endowment foundation website. It lists different interventions and the impact and cost. Very interesting. It won't show what you expect.

Enjoy.

 

[Drebin]

It might have been covered on the thread already (can't be arsed to read through) but as a teacher I know what i would prefer out of parents that encourage their children with their schoolwork, have a positiv attitude to education, and make sure their children turn up to school on time but take their children out of school for a week during term time, or parents that do none or not much of the above but send their children to school every day of the school year to just eff about and interrupt lessons because they're starved of attention at home.

It sounds harsh and judgemental but there's more of these children than you might think.

 

[Swillis]

If you've got kids and you can't afford to take them away during school holidays, then choose a holiday which you CAN afford for ****s sake. Crock of shit people not being able to "afford" a holiday - even spending time at home with your kids is a holiday. The problem is when the parents want an adult holiday, and want a holiday where Ruby and Oliver can be put in a "kids care" scheme, whilst Chantal (Mummy) and Gary (Daddy) can sit by the pool drinking.

I have read some shite on the internet, but that is up there with the best of it.

 

[blockhseagull]

Teachers don't help themselves in the run up to holidays.

DVD afternoons and 'tiding the classroom/school grounds' in the last week hardly sends out the right message, do they?


For the record Jnr Stat, thanks to an AM hospital appointment, will this year miss his 4th consecutive 100% year.
Lil Miss Stat isn't too bad either.

This !!!

I was refused permission to take my kids out of the last 3 days of school in July, however during this time they did no work whatsoever and spent most of the time watching DVD's and having extended 'breaks' and assemblies.

 

[Bold Seagull]

This !!!

I was refused permission to take my kids out of the last 3 days of school in July, however during this time they did no work whatsoever and spent most of the time watching DVD's and having extended 'breaks' and assemblies.

It's all to do with Ofsted. School budgets are pretty much set per number of pupils you take in. Down on your numbers, your budget is reduced. Unfortunately many parents DO go off Ofsted for the selection of their school. Given a school can get marked down by Ofsted due to attendance, it is no surprise there are no sanctioned absences.

As an example a 2 class intake primary (60 kids) will need to hit 46 children to break even. Anything between 32 and 46 is a loss as that school will be legally required to provide 2 classes with 2 teachers. So, a school gets Requires Improvement and one of the reasons is attendance, the following year parents don't choose that school because of Ofsted, and you have the very real situation of a deficit budget, and potentially someone like a TA losing their job. That is the reality of why most heads will not be signing off any absences.

School Inspections are necessary, but Ofsted is often a counter productive harsh model that really most people don't fully understand. There are some wonderful schools that Require Improvement and some regimented narrowed curriculum Outstanding ones that actually you really want to think twice about sending your kid there.

Given Ofsted does have such an impact of parent choice, attendance will be hot on most schools agendas.

 

[macky]

Not forgetting that some people have jobs where they an only take holidays at certain times some people cant take their holidays during july aug

 

[Maldini]

ha ha you've just told me so much about yourself in such a simple paragraph.

Pathetic.

 

[blockhseagull]

It's all to do with Ofsted. School budgets are pretty much set per number of pupils you take in. Down on your numbers, your budget is reduced. Unfortunately many parents DO go off Ofsted for the selection of their school. Given a school can get marked down by Ofsted due to attendance, it is no surprise there are no sanctioned absences.

As an example a 2 class intake primary (60 kids) will need to hit 46 children to break even. Anything between 32 and 46 is a loss as that school will be legally required to provide 2 classes with 2 teachers. So, a school gets Requires Improvement and one of the reasons is attendance, the following year parents don't choose that school because of Ofsted, and you have the very real situation of a deficit budget, and potentially someone like a TA losing their job. That is the reality of why most heads will not be signing off any absences.

School Inspections are necessary, but Ofsted is often a counter productive harsh model that really most people don't fully understand. There are some wonderful schools that Require Improvement and some regimented narrowed curriculum Outstanding ones that actually you really want to think twice about sending your kid there.

Given Ofsted does have such an impact of parent choice, attendance will be hot on most schools agendas.

I get the reasoning, and it does seem everything is about numbers.

My problem is, that teachers can be very sanctimonious about unauthorized absences etc, which does make me slightly annoyed when they have wasted days like those at the end of term. My attitude is fine if they are the rules then they are the rules, but if your saying no then actually teach them something when they are there.

 

[Maldini]

If you've got kids and you can't afford to take them away during school holidays, then choose a holiday which you CAN afford for ****s sake. Crock of shit people not being able to "afford" a holiday - even spending time at home with your kids is a holiday. The problem is when the parents want an adult holiday, and want a holiday where Ruby and Oliver can be put in a "kids care" scheme, whilst Chantal (Mummy) and Gary (Daddy) can sit by the pool drinking.

My guess is that you've never had a great family holiday.

 

[Arrid]

It might have been covered on the thread already (can't be arsed to read through) but as a teacher I know what i would prefer out of parents that encourage their children with their schoolwork, have a positiv attitude to education, and make sure their children turn up to school on time but take their children out of school for a week during term time, or parents that do none or not much of the above but send their children to school every day of the school year to just eff about and interrupt lessons because they're starved of attention at home.

It sounds harsh and judgemental but there's more of these children than you might think.

Absolutely, there is just so very much more to address than worrying about if a child has a 92% or 98% attendance record. I would imagine if you are a teacher, positive constructive parents working together, communicating together on the well being, education and deficiencies of their child must be utopia.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Is 14 weeks in which to take these holidays not enough? Is saving a few quid really justification for missing school?

It's not about the available period but that period is too expensive for many families. I've just scrolled down and seen that you are a school governor which might explain your post. It would appear schools do not understand how hard up many families are and so they budget very tightly every month. I can only guess teachers are so well paid nowadays that they have plenty of disposable income every month - otherwise we parents would get the constant demands for money with short timescales to pay it. A lot of families just can't come up with the latest £50 deposit at the drop of a hat. I thought teachers were meant to plan ahead ? Is it too much to ask that they inform parents of money demands with plenty of notice ?

If taking your kids out of school for a holiday is so bad for them why has the end of summer term trip changed from an educational one to places like Alton Towers ? Double standards me thinks.

To turn around your question - if as you suggest 14 weeks is plenty of time to take family holidays surely it's also plenty of time to have inset days inside school holidays as well ?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It might have been covered on the thread already (can't be arsed to read through) but as a teacher I know what i would prefer out of parents that encourage their children with their schoolwork, have a positiv attitude to education, and make sure their children turn up to school on time but take their children out of school for a week during term time, or parents that do none or not much of the above but send their children to school every day of the school year to just eff about and interrupt lessons because they're starved of attention at home.

It sounds harsh and judgemental but there's more of these children than you might think.

This.

 

[Tooting Gull]

The answer to the original question is of course they haven't. Clearly in this case other, overall attendance played a major part in the decision.

Very complex issue when all the factors are taken into account. I see it both as a parent who pays outrageously inflated prices out of term (or not often, if we can't afford them), and also as a governor, where I understand completely the desire of teachers for kids to be in school. Basically, they should be.

The main problem with this as so often in life is people taking the piss - parents, and travel companies. They ruin it for everyone else.

If a head teacher can establish that for financial or family reasons this trip simply cannot take place in the holidays, and that there will be an educational benefit to offset what is being missed, that seems a reasonable cut-off. A child can be asked to keep a diary by the head.

I have to say I'm not sure Disney, in this case in the news, would have met my educational requirement but there we go. But there is also a benefit in families having time together in this way that goes beyond education and attendance figures. Not an easy one at all, I know it gives our school a lot of grief.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I get the reasoning, and it does seem everything is about numbers.

My problem is, that teachers can be very sanctimonious about unauthorized absences etc, which does make me slightly annoyed when they have wasted days like those at the end of term. My attitude is fine if they are the rules then they are the rules, but if your saying no then actually teach them something when they are there.

Why on earth are you and others continually mentioning teachers in this discussion? As mentioned elsewhere, the government has made laws which allow no discretion at all. It seems likely that although there has been a victory for the chap taking his child out of school in the high court, it will be pyhrric.

Headteachers take the decision, not ordinary teachers who have absolutely no say whatsoever in the matter, are simply carrying out the government's wishes. Repeated claims that teachers are somehow to blame for this situation are laughable.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's not about the available period but that period is too expensive for many families. I've just scrolled down and seen that you are a school governor which might explain your post. It would appear schools do not understand how hard up many families are and so they budget very tightly every month. I can only guess teachers are so well paid nowadays that they have plenty of disposable income every month - otherwise we parents would get the constant demands for money with short timescales to pay it. A lot of families just can't come up with the latest £50 deposit at the drop of a hat. I thought teachers were meant to plan ahead ? Is it too much to ask that they inform parents of money demands with plenty of notice ?

If taking your kids out of school for a holiday is so bad for them why has the end of summer term trip changed from an educational one to places like Alton Towers ? Double standards me thinks.

To turn around your question - if as you suggest 14 weeks is plenty of time to take family holidays surely it's also plenty of time to have inset days inside school holidays as well ?

I don't have all the answers, but I do know teachers prepare fairly detailed lesson plans for an entire term, and one child missing a week could mean that child then needs individual attention to catch them up. Multiply that by various children going away at different times and you have a lot more work on your hands.

I'd prefer to see a regional model where half terms for the South East are the week before the South West etc. so that the UK dates for half term are actually across 3 weeks for the country, and the summer holiday is more like 8 weeks. That said European holidays will always be more expensive in August, so why not start term a week later in September? There are no doubt logistical reasons but if would be far better if we could take advantage of holidays collectively rather than the possibility of a teacher having numerous absences from their class across an academic year.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

It's not about the available period but that period is too expensive for many families. I've just scrolled down and seen that you are a school governor which might explain your post. It would appear schools do not understand how hard up many families are and so they budget very tightly every month. I can only guess teachers are so well paid nowadays that they have plenty of disposable income every month - otherwise we parents would get the constant demands for money with short timescales to pay it. A lot of families just can't come up with the latest £50 deposit at the drop of a hat. I thought teachers were meant to plan ahead ? Is it too much to ask that they inform parents of money demands with plenty of notice ?

If taking your kids out of school for a holiday is so bad for them why has the end of summer term trip changed from an educational one to places like Alton Towers ? Double standards me thinks.

To turn around your question - if as you suggest 14 weeks is plenty of time to take family holidays surely it's also plenty of time to have inset days inside school holidays as well ?

Complete rubbish. I reiterate, this situation has NOTHING to do with teachers. And incidentally, teachers pay has fallen behind in real terms compared to similarly qualified professionals in the last twenty years.

 

[blockhseagull]

Why on earth are you and others continually mentioning teachers in this discussion? As mentioned elsewhere, the government has made laws which allow no discretion at all. It seems likely that although there has been a victory for the chap taking his child out of school in the high court, it will be pyhrric.

Headteachers take the decision, not ordinary teachers who have absolutely no say whatsoever in the matter, are simply carrying out the government's wishes. Repeated claims that teachers are somehow to blame for this situation are laughable.

I'm blaming them for not teaching kids until the end of term !

Or are you suggesting that the head tells them to show dvd's and bring in games from home

 

[narly101]

My guess is that you've never had a great family holiday.

Of course I have thanks, never taken out of school for a "holiday" when I was a kid, and had plenty of great family holidays. Only went abroad twice before I was 18, and one of those was Scotland.

Now I've got a kid of my own, and a wife who is a teacher, guess who can't take holidays out of term. So when people say, the holidays are soooooo expensive, remember that there are some who don't have a choice when it comes to spending the money that demand and supply dictates. Simple economics.

Life never said it was fair, and the sooner people realise that the better.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm blaming them for not teaching kids until the end of term !

Or are you suggesting that the head tells them to show dvd's and bring in games from home

No you were not, at least not exclusively. You said teachers can be very sanctimonious about leave taken in term. That is completely irrelevant by implication, as teachers don't have any say at all about leave.

In my experience, term does wind down, however, to say that they do no work at all for several days is wrong. Even when I was a kid, children enjoyed a more relaxed summer term, usually the last day would be a fun day, but certainly not for three days or a week. Teachers have a very demanding job and there is very little room for freedom these days anyway.

And in any case, going back to there original argument, I think kids with good attendance should be allowed on holiday with their family in term time.