Graham Roberts - ridiculous Little Englander drivel on Talksport

[Herr Tubthumper]

What is wrong with his point of view - I don't think he's far from the truth.

The English clubs throughout the late 70's to the mid 80's completely dominated in all European competitions and the reaction of UEFA at the time was wholly OTT given other European clubs had just as bad a hooliganism problem as the English.

Why have the Dutch ever been thrown out? What about the Turks and Italians for the stream of stabbings & violence during matches in and around their stadiums? What about the Russians for their constant homophobic and racist abuse of fans and players.

Despite Graham Roberts being a dick, I'm afraid he has hit the nail on the head with this.

Turning it around why haven't Spain been slung out for "winning everything". It's a load of nonsense from a thicko...it really is that simple.

 

[Captain Sensible]

If the ban had really been about humanity or justice, then surely the people who declared Heysel suitable for a european final should've been punished? As should the idiots on crowd control. A ban for Liverpool would've have been a reasonable response, but banning all English clubs was clearly political although nothing to do with winning. Liverpool fans behaviour was appalling but the condition of the stadium and the total failure of the policing operation were major factors too.

A ban suited all parties, the Tories were seen to be 'doing' something, the FA were their usual spineless selves and UEFA needed to be seen to act.

Because a suitable stadium should have prevented the deaths? You are entirely missing the point. Yes the stadium was crap and was not really suitable enough, but the stadium wasn't chosen on the basis that it could withstand thousands of people being crushed against a wall causing it to collapse. There are many cases when we question the venues chosen, logistical, safety, capacity etc etc. It still does not matter, this was an accumulation of events from English fans that ended up causing this atrocity.
One from which we have not recovered.

 

[GT49er]

Sorry my bad. You are correct it was Blues v (Dirty) Leeds.

I was mixing it up with Leeds at West Brom in 1982

Yes, Leeds fans certainly were well known for being a very nasty bunch.

 

[chaileyjem]

If the ban had really been about humanity or justice, then surely the people who declared Heysel suitable for a european final should've been punished? .

"Jacques Georges, the Uefa president at the time, and Hans Bangerter, his general secretary, were threatened with imprisonment but eventually given conditional discharges. Albert Roosens, the former secretary-general of the Belgian Football Union (BFU), was given a six-month suspended prison sentence for “regrettable negligence” with regard to ticketing arrangements. So was gendarme captain Johan Mahieu, who was in charge of the policing the stands at Heysel. “He made fundamental errors,” Pierre Verlynde, the judge, said. “He was far too passive. I find his negligence extraordinary.”
via The Times and reprinted in
http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

 

[surlyseagull]

Wow, the Little Englander mob are out in force today. Finished with your Daily Mails for the day??

Always forget what a right wing cesspit this place is. Thanks for reminding me why I stopped coming on here!

Bit of a sweeping statement dont you think old chap .

 

[Stato]

Whilst remarks that the long ban was down to English success are ill placed, I can understand the confusion because other European countries definitely showed a reluctance to lift the ban despite the English doing more to combat their hooliganism problem than any other country in the intervening years. I suspect that this reluctance was more politically motivated than anything. By banning the English clubs, UEFA and Europe ring fenced football hooliganism as 'The English Problem' and avoided pressure to take the action necessary to alleviate the problem in the rest of Europe. I can understand how someone like Graham Roberts may be satisfied with simpler explanations for the European negativity towards the English team's return.

 

[mikeyjh]

Little reading on the subject, fug me Phil Neal doesn't cover himself in any glory does he... http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/apr/03/newsstory.sport

 

[ThePompousPaladin]

Wow, the Little Englander mob are out in force today

They're always victims...

 

[Seasidesage]

Because a suitable stadium should have prevented the deaths? You are entirely missing the point. Yes the stadium was crap and was not really suitable enough, but the stadium wasn't chosen on the basis that it could withstand thousands of people being crushed against a wall causing it to collapse. There are many cases when we question the venues chosen, logistical, safety, capacity etc etc. It still does not matter, this was an accumulation of events from English fans that ended up causing this atrocity.
One from which we have not recovered.

A suitable and safe stadium may well have saved the people. How on earth did 'an accumulation of events from English fans cause this atrocity'? Are you saying that all the other outbreaks of hooliganism were a practice for Heysel? Without the scousers fighting the rest doesn't happen, but with adequate policing it doesn't happen either and with a ground safe enough to house a major event, the deaths and injuries may well have been prevented. Is Hillsborough the fault of people trying to get into the ground? Or a combination of factors including poor crowd control and fences?

To attempt to blame all English fans for Heysel is ridiculous

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

You're right. Banging my head against a right-wing brick wall. Cannot believe this is even a debate.

Would love to see some of the views on here shared with the families of the victims of the Heysel victims.

Some things never change, NSC is one of them....

Well feck off then------missing you already

 

[Captain Sensible]

A suitable and safe stadium may well have saved the people. How on earth did 'an accumulation of events from English fans cause this atrocity'? Are you saying that all the other outbreaks of hooliganism were a practice for Heysel? Without the scousers fighting the rest doesn't happen, but with adequate policing it doesn't happen either and with a ground safe enough to house a major event, the deaths and injuries may well have been prevented. Is Hillsborough the fault of people trying to get into the ground? Or a combination of factors including poor crowd control and fences?

To attempt to blame all English fans for Heysel is ridiculous

You are trying to muddy waters and I have no idea why. This is a discussion about why English clubs were banned from Europe. It didn't matter if it was Liverpool or Man Utd or which English fans it was at Heysel. The Heysel disaster was the straw that broke the camels back. A long history of hooliganism and violence followed English clubs abroad finally ending with Heysel, before enough was enough. Deaths were a combination of factors as you rightly point out, but say that wall did not collapse, the stadium was ok at the time and those people lived, it may still have resulted in a ban of English clubs because of yet another incident of hooliganism, and on the grandest of stages. The ban isn't wasn't about the stadiums or any other circumstance other than Hooliganism.

 

[alfredmizen]

Wow, the Little Englander mob are out in force today. Finished with your Daily Mails for the day??

Always forget what a right wing cesspit this place is. Thanks for reminding me why I stopped coming on here!

Bye then.

 

[alfredmizen]

L

You're right. Banging my head against a right-wing brick wall. Cannot believe this is even a debate.

Would love to see some of the views on here shared with the families of the victims of the Heysel victims.

Some things never change, NSC is one of them....

you being a bit of an immature tit being another ?

 

[Javeaseagull]

You are trying to muddy waters and I have no idea why. This is a discussion about why English clubs were banned from Europe. It didn't matter if it was Liverpool or Man Utd or which English fans it was at Heysel. The Heysel disaster was the straw that broke the camels back. A long history of hooliganism and violence followed English clubs abroad finally ending with Heysel, before enough was enough. Deaths were a combination of factors as you rightly point out, but say that wall did not collapse, the stadium was ok at the time and those people lived, it may still have resulted in a ban of English clubs because of yet another incident of hooliganism, and on the grandest of stages. The ban isn't wasn't about the stadiums or any other circumstance other than Hooliganism.

Have to disagree, it was about the stadium. EUFA were warned that it was inadequate before the match took place but went ahead anyway. Not so much a case of blaming English fans more a case of covering their own arse. Our reputation in Europe helped them in that nobody looked at the stadium in the witch hunt against English fans. Let's face it, we are hated by pretty much everyone!

 

[Seasidesage]

You are trying to muddy waters and I have no idea why. This is a discussion about why English clubs were banned from Europe. It didn't matter if it was Liverpool or Man Utd or which English fans it was at Heysel. The Heysel disaster was the straw that broke the camels back. A long history of hooliganism and violence followed English clubs abroad finally ending with Heysel, before enough was enough. Deaths were a combination of factors as you rightly point out, but say that wall did not collapse, the stadium was ok at the time and those people lived, it may still have resulted in a ban of English clubs because of yet another incident of hooliganism, and on the grandest of stages. The ban isn't wasn't about the stadiums or any other circumstance other than Hooliganism.

If you think that there would've been a 5 year ban without the deaths? I doubt there would've been any ban at all. I'm not trying to muddy anything just pointing out that there was no ban for Berne or Ajax or Rotterdam or Turin or any of the numerous other instances of violence in the ground. Was there a 5 year ban for Croatian fans causing their international in Italy to be suspended last year? What about Marseille fans attacking a former player during the game and forcing the teams from the field last week?

The authorities do not take significant action against any of the dozens of incidents that take place week in week out worldwide. Heysel wasn't the straw that broke the Camels back it was the whole camel. People died in colour live on TV across Europe what had gone on before had no bearing.

Also as a Brighton fan around in the 70/80's I refuse to feel responsible for Heysel at all.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Yes, Leeds fans certainly were well known for being a very nasty bunch.

In terms of violent behaviour abroad, Leeds and Liverpool were far and away the worst offenders. This was mainly down to their success ( playing in Europe most seasons ) and mass popular support. The European Cup Final between Leeds and Bayern Munich ( 10 years before Heysel ) was a disgrace. Leeds fans were out of control and tried to get the game stopped. As Liverpool's success grew, their popular support grew massively and their following abroad got larger and larger. Their followers would turn up from all points of the compass, in massed ranks, inebriated and trouble would inevitably follow.
English clubs were amazingly successful from the mid 70's to mid 80's, partly due to a lack of outstanding European teams over this period and the format of the competition. English clubs mastered the knack of two-legged ties. Liverpool and Forest had outstanding defences and regularly protected one goal leads, away from home. They learnt not to panic when home ties were only drawn and recorded many single goal away wins.
Post Heysel, the lack of English clubs in Europe allowed others to develop and the introduction of the Champions League with its group format,started to nullify our traditional strength over two-leg knockout football.
The ban had nothing to do with curbing success. Roberts is just showing his ignorance. It was a ban waiting to happen and we are still paying the price.

 

[supaseagull]

You're right. Banging my head against a right-wing brick wall. Cannot believe this is even a debate.

Would love to see some of the views on here shared with the families of the victims of the Heysel victims.

Some things never change, NSC is one of them....

I think you will find from all my posts that drivel I may post sometimes, however right wing drivel is not something I partake in.

Now looney lefty socialist shit yes but never right wing? Nah

 

[Captain Sensible]

If you think that there would've been a 5 year ban without the deaths? I doubt there would've been any ban at all. I'm not trying to muddy anything just pointing out that there was no ban for Berne or Ajax or Rotterdam or Turin or any of the numerous other instances of violence in the ground. Was there a 5 year ban for Croatian fans causing their international in Italy to be suspended last year? What about Marseille fans attacking a former player during the game and forcing the teams from the field last week?

The authorities do not take significant action against any of the dozens of incidents that take place week in week out worldwide. Heysel wasn't the straw that broke the Camels back it was the whole camel. People died in colour live on TV across Europe what had gone on before had no bearing.

Also as a Brighton fan around in the 70/80's I refuse to feel responsible for Heysel at all.

Sorry I disagree with your entire post. I think you are missing the point completely. But if you can't work it out then there's nothing else to say. Apart from that I agree you weren't responsible, but then the actions of a few can have an impact on the many.

 

[Seasidesage]

Sorry I disagree with your entire post. Apart from that I agree you weren't responsible, but then the actions of a few can have an impact on the many.

Guess we will agree to disagree...

 

[Hampster Gull]

Shhh, look behind you, they're after us