GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[DTES]

Doesnt make it a bad one though does it ?
Rules are normally installed into us via our parents, who in turn got theirs from their parents.
Do you not think that maybe it all started by adhereing to values installed by said commandments.
Christian Values ?

Christian values? That isn't even a consistent concept. Christian values, depending on where you are, can include executing homosexuals, or 'just' banning condoms and, as a result, accelerating the spread of HIV.

Anyway, even if it is where values came from, that neither provides any evidence towards the OP's question, or provides any reason to continue to hold on to it. Why shouldn't we just throw the bible out of the window? I'm pretty sure nobody - Christian or atheist - would suddenly start murdering people as a result...

 

[DTES]

JC's life is enough evidence for me, i don't feel i need to justify myself further. I don't care when we were created, 5000 years ago or 25,000 years ago or if there was and Adam and Eve or whether we came from apes. I care about Jesus's teaching, I'm only reading the Old testament to get an overview and to say i've read it. Knowing about the Red Sea being parted or whether some bloke lived 900 years and fathered 500 children, or that non-virgins should be stoned is totally irrelevant to me and not aimed at me as a Christian. I'm only interested in what JC is saying, which is the same for all catholics. That's not picking and choosing.

The thing is, it is picking and choosing. You are choosing to believe that the story of Jesus's life in the Bible is true. On what basis do you believe the stories in the New Testament are true? Again, "the bible must be true because the bible says it's true" is circular logic. I'm not suggesting that you are 'in the wrong' by choosing to believe, just wondering on what basis you do so.

 

[birthofanorange]

I agree; it would take someone in a position of power. But it would be just as good if chosen as a guide for life. Apologies if you didn't mean it was good, that was how I read it at the time.

No probs, maybe I didn't phrase it very well.




Agreed. I'm just trying to understand how/why people that do believe he exists, do believe.

Likewise - I don't 'believe' as such, but I am open to the possibility. I find that those that refuse to accept that possibility equally narrow-minded as those that insist that it is a given.

Now't wrong with hearing some views on it all, though.

 

[Locky]

Fine, I really fail to see how someone like you, you admits huge parts of the bible are laughable, would take any notice of the rest of it. Surely the laughable parts, discredits any other parts where proof doesn't exist.

After all, if we had this converasation a the year before Darwin published his theory, you'd have probably thought the world was created in 7 days, and god created man in his own image. But because we now are 99.999999999999999999% that evolution is probably correct, and that the earth was formed over millions and millions of years, these parts of the bible are now laughable to people. So why would you take a ounce of notice of the rest of it?

As far as the Bible is concerned I agree with parts of it. Surely when you listen to someone with an opinion you can agree with parts of that opinion but overall disagree and find [arts of that opinion laughable.

Ok we know evolution is 99% certain, so maybe thats how God planned and created it.

 

[DerbyGull]

How you can leave it at that. You have said on two occasions, 750,000 people due to die in Africa through starvation, probably one of the worst ways a person could die, could be considered lucky. I think that would sound sick to 99.999% of human beings to be honest.

So if you have such faith in the after life, why not kill yourself to be closer to god?

This is MANS inhumanity to fellow MAN. If the rulers of Somalia gave a shit about there people these people wouldnt be dying, so how the f*** is it my fault? I'm saying with leaders like those they're better off away from it.

 

[Mr Burns]

Keep playing on words why don't you. You're so full of vitriol it's unhealthy.

So how comes they (talking about babies and young children and African famine) go straight to heaven, whilst the rest of us are left on earth to prove ourselves? Why are they not tested?

You could say they are the lucky ones.

How is that a play on words?

Check it out.

NSC
Chapter GOD: How Much do you believe in him.
Verse #600

 

[Locky]

Christian values? That isn't even a consistent concept. Christian values, depending on where you are, can include executing homosexuals, or 'just' banning condoms and, as a result, accelerating the spread of HIV.

Anyway, even if it is where values came from, that neither provides any evidence towards the OP's question, or provides any reason to continue to hold on to it. Why shouldn't we just throw the bible out of the window? I'm pretty sure nobody - Christian or atheist - would suddenly start murdering people as a result...

DTES dont get me wrong I agree with you as regards to Christian Values, Some of the most unchristian people I know are supposed Christians.
You may be right these days regarding people murdering as a result of throwing the Bible out the window but the Values are installed in most all of us so are unlikely to change.

 

[Mr Burns]

This is MANS inhumanity to fellow MAN. If the rulers of Somalia gave a shit about there people these people wouldnt be dying, so how the f*** is it my fault? I'm saying with leaders like those they're better off away from it.

You said its your fault? Very high opinion of your there cocker. I could agrue christian mishionaries have a lot to answer for, as to why Africa is so f***ed up.

But then if you god was so powerful that he could create the world in 7 days, and a species as complex as man in one day, then why does he not step in and help "his" people. Why does he let a few live in paradise in Somalia and punish millions? (Although that does have a familair ring to it when thinking of the church)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus

 

[DerbyGull]

How you can leave it at that. You have said on two occasions, 750,000 people due to die in Africa through starvation, probably one of the worst ways a person could die, could be considered lucky. I think that would sound sick to 99.999% of human beings to be honest.

So if you have such faith in the after life, why not kill yourself to be closer to god?

I wonder if you lose any sleep over these Somalians. No, you're just looking for a fight as usual. I've given to the Somalian aid on several occasions even though i'm not working. Maybe if you feel so strongly you'll dip your hands into your pockets.

 

[Jello Biafra]

if you're a 'raving atheist', you don't get Dawkins' point. He's anti-raving (in the sense of those who adopt unalterable positions without reference to empirical evidence, not 'avin it large on a Saturday night). The followers of the nazarene like to portray him as a raving extremist. Raving atheist is an oxymoron.

Just read The God Delusion, and am now a raving atheist.

I do believe in miracles however, but the only one I saw was down to Steve Gritt.

 

[Mr Burns]

As far as the Bible is concerned I agree with parts of it. Surely when you listen to someone with an opinion you can agree with parts of that opinion but overall disagree and find [arts of that opinion laughable.

Ok we know evolution is 99% certain, so maybe thats how God planned and created it.

Off course you can. But I wouldn't live my life by the parts that were not provable, when so much of what they say is laughable.

The second paragraph is such a cop out. If you are going to say anything in the bible that has been disproven, is maybe how god planed it, it sounds like you are living in complete denail.

 

[DTES]

DTES dont get me wrong I agree with you as regards to Christian Values, Some of the most unchristian people I know are supposed Christians.
You may be right these days regarding people murdering as a result of throwing the Bible out the window but the Values are installed in most all of us so are unlikely to change.

No, no, no. I'm sorry, but I hate the phrase 'unchristian' in such a sense, implying that 'christian' is, by nature, a virtue. IMHO, it isn't. That's not to say it's a bad thing; it isn't. It's just... well it's a religion and nothing more.

The same 'values' exist in civilisations/communities that have never heard of Christianity.

Surely someone who believes the christian god wants him to execute homosexuals is just 'christian' as a pleasant C of E follower who wouldn't hurt a fly?

 

[beorhthelm]

the atheists can never answer what created the big bang. for them it is always matter, and never consciousness.

you are confusing atheists with scientists, the former do not "answer" anything but can use science to disprove beliefs. but while we're here... i personally wouldn't exclude the existance of such a "consciousness", but it immidiately begs the question: what created it? another consciousness or some other matter. this line of thought becomes infinitly recursive, so its pointless to dwell upon it. there are no answers here for either side, unless we invoke "faith". Bertrand Russell already showed the error of that.

and, i think you'll find that "god" and "Lord" are both English words of germanic origin, generic in their original context. other langauges have different words, for example "dios" in Spanish. if there is a mistranslation its probably in the hebrew-greek or greek-latin.

Anyone who chose either of the FACT options is a dimwit. If it was fact either way these debates wouldn't continue until the end of time, as they always do. A GOD of any sort cannot be proved nor disproved.

well, there is always the hope that the populace would become educated and informed enough to discount superstition and myths about a man/men in the clouds before the end of time, though one does accept its is unlikly. however, the real point make here is that depending on your definition and criteria of "god" you very much can disprove their existance. as Epicurus did, 300 years before the cult of Jesus started, by showing that a benevolent, omnipotent, all knowing god simply cannot exist in a world where bad happens, and if you wish to change one of those criteria what sort of low grade god are you left with?

For me hearing/reading IS believing. I don't need any hard evidence. The bible is enough.

Do you believe that Jesus/God once existed 2000 years ago and that for some reason they're just not up in the sky anymore? or do you believe it's just stories??

Figures suggest 2 billion christians worldwide (1 third of the globe). Do you just think they're all deluded? ONE THIRD of the world DELUDED? Really?

so, you believe in a tyranncial, despotic, vengeful god that would just as soon kill or bring great suffering a non-beliver or entire race of people? thats the god in the bible, he isnt really very nice. right at the start, he deliberatly sets a trap, punishing Adam and Eve for scrumping, in full knowledge they would do so (he created them so must know of their inquistive nature). what a bastard!

"deluded" is a word some might use for the 2 billion believers (and you forget the Jews and Muslims) who cant see past this, i'd rather use "misguided", as most know little better.

 

[DerbyGull]

You said its your fault? Very high opinion of your there cocker. I could agrue christian mishionaries have a lot to answer for, as to why Africa is so f***ed up.

But then if you god was so powerful that he could create the world in 7 days, and a species as complex as man in one day, then why does he not step in and help "his" people. Why does he let a few live in paradise in Somalia and punish millions? (Although that does have a familair ring to it when thinking of the church)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus

Like i said, you're full of hate and vitriol. And clearly you're very insecure.

 

[drew]

ever done ayahuasca? ever studied any 18th century rosicrucianism? i am firmly happy in the knowlege (my perception in my consciousness) that past lives exist, and that there are numerous other dimensions.

how can some-thing (consciousness) come out of no-thing and then return to no-thing? that is weirdest belief system ever.

the vessel replaces ALL its cells every 7 years (some daily) - where does consciousness "go" when these replacements happen? it is non-local, as is memory; non-local.

The vessel is just vibrating frequency decoded by the DNA, as is all matter.

If that's what tickles your fancy then fair enough. Just give me a shout when the great Peter Ward is reincarnated!

As for your 'how can some-thing (consciousness) come out of no-thing and then return to no-thing' doesn't that apply to creation. Took 7 days and then, as I understand, eventually there will be armagedon and that's it. Or will 'God' decide to create another little play ground? As for consciousness, I'm not sure I understand exactly where you're coming from. Virtually all living things could be described as having some form of consciousness. Plants will grow towards the sun because that is what is best for them. Animals learn where their best feeding ground is etc etc. Surely it is just a case of how much of that is instinct and how much of that instinct is passed on to the next generation.

Science is fascinating and can explain things relion can't, faith is amazing and can explain things science can't. That's the way i see it anyway. Look at what life enhancing effects a surgeon can have on a patient. But then people pray for things and miracles happen. The two don't have to clash. Like someone on here said, God is my co-pilot. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Exactly what can religion explain that science can't? The basis of most religions were founded centuries ago when science was not as advanced as it is now. Science is slowly but surely eroding the stories that are the bedrock of religion.

There's evidence that disproves god?

For me hearing/reading IS believing. I don't need any hard evidence. The bible is enough.

Do you believe that Jesus/God once existed 2000 years ago and that for some reason they're just not up in the sky anymore? or do you believe it's just stories??

Figures suggest 2 billion christians worldwide (1 third of the globe). Do you just think they're all deluded? ONE THIRD of the world DELUDED? Really?

You believe a book based on stories handed down over centuries (because there weren't any mass printers in them days). Stories that would make uneducated people fear for their well being and keep them in line. Do you also believe in the legend of King Arthur, the lady of the lake and Excalibur, the story of St George and Dragon, the minotaur and greek mythology etc etc.

Doesnt make it a bad one though does it ?
Rules are normally installed into us via our parents, who in turn got theirs from their parents.
Do you not think that maybe it all started by adhereing to values installed by said commandments.
Christian Values ?

But that implies that only Christians have morals because it's in their 'book' that the commandments on how to live your life were introduced into society. That must be a bit of a kick in the teeth for other religions, such as Buddhists who probably think they lead a pretty good moral life? Perhaps some bright spark thought that all this murdering and thuggery was not conducive for a longer life and that it meant only the tough ones got to rule. What if I come up with an idea that, quite literally, puts the fear of god into them and allows the more intelligent to take some of the better jobs in the village!!!!

As for the ten commandments, isn't it a bit arrogant to claim there is only one God. Also, why can't we work on a Sunday, the clergy do! Fortunately, my neighbour got rid of their ox sometime ago so it's not something I covert. As for murder, one assumes he relates this on a micro economic scale because, let's be honest, looking at the macro picture, he's pretty much got murder on a grand scale covered. Tsunami, famine, earthquake etc etc. If these are all acts of god then surely they must count as murder. And if there is one thing I can't stand is someone who says do as I say and not as I do. Far to hypercritical!!!!

 

[Locky]

Off course you can. But I wouldn't live my life by the parts that were not provable, when so much of what they say is laughable.

The second paragraph is such a cop out. If you are going to say anything in the bible that has been disproven, is maybe how god planed it, it sounds like you are living in complete denail.

Whats wrong with picking out parts of any book and thinking hey thats a good idea, think i will do that.

I did say maybe, as in fairness I dont know, but my mind is open to the possibility where yours is firmly closed.

 

[Acker79]

For the few that still bring it up, I will repeat an earlier point:

This is NSC. Most of us understand that here on NSC "Fact!" doesn't mean the same thing as 'fact' does outside of this messageboard. Some of us voted with this in mind.

 

[DerbyGull]

so, you believe in a tyranncial, despotic, vengeful god that would just as soon kill or bring great suffering a non-beliver or entire race of people? thats the god in the OLD TESTAMENT, he isnt really very nice. right at the start, he deliberatly sets a trap, punishing Adam and Eve for scrumping, in full knowledge they would do so (he created them so must know of their inquistive nature). what a bastard!

I believe in Jesus Christ! He is none of those things. Compassionate, forgiving, loving, etc.

 

[Locky]

But that implies that only Christians have morals because it's in their 'book' that the commandments on how to live your life were introduced into society. That must be a bit of a kick in the teeth for other religions, such as Buddhists who probably think they lead a pretty good moral life? Perhaps some bright spark thought that all this murdering and thuggery was not conducive for a longer life and that it meant only the tough ones got to rule. What if I come up with an idea that, quite literally, puts the fear of god into them and allows the more intelligent to take some of the better jobs in the village!!!!

In this instance we were talking about The Bible but I would agree most all religions have rules (not all good ones imo including the Bible)
But they have and do set values.

 

[Mr Burns]

I wonder if you lose any sleep over these Somalians. No, you're just looking for a fight as usual. I've given to the Somalian aid on several occasions even though i'm not working. Maybe if you feel so strongly you'll dip your hands into your pockets.

But you still haven't answered the point. You have said such a vile thing about the 750k they think will die, and you can not accept what you said was evil, or even tired to take it back, or say you were misquoted, which obviosuly you haven't been. And you claim to be a Christain!!! Says it all really.

For whats its worth, I have visited Africa on many occassions, and plan to do so on many more. I also plan to do voluentary work out there next year, and if all goes to plan, in 8 or 9 years time, when I am finiancally sercure, I will spend months out there at a time doing unpaid charaity work , so don't accuse me of looking for a fight. I've already put far more into Africa, that a person like you ever will.

You like quotes, he's another one "Two hands working can do more than a million clasped in prayer"

You claim to have given money to Somalian aid on several occasions even though you have not been working. Amazing out of all the African countries in shit, you have given money to the one I mention. WHAT BULLSHIT! Also what you say suggusts to me you haven't worked for some time. WOW! Big surprise there with your views. You've too much time on your hands, and nothing to fill it with, so you turn to the bible. You're 29. Is mummy and daddy still paying your way in life?

Well, at 29 I would say all being well (and if you haven't got enough confidence in the after life and your god to kill yourself tonight) we'll probably be lying on our death beds around the same time.

Hopefully by then, I'll be able to look back on my life and be proud of the work I've done helping others , and people in Africa will be better for me living. (Even if I can help just one family I'll be happy)

You'll look back on yours, and wonder why the f*** you chased a myth, and all your millions of prayers would have helped no one... except yourself.

People that know me, will say, he did a lot to help others and was a nice bloke.

People will know you will probably say, what a twat. Prayed a lot, but didn't do him any good. And then for both of us, it will fade to black, and we'll sleep without dreams forever.

Although saying that, I would suggest that your life has so little direction and purpose (hence your late need for the bible) that you will probably die of boredom or despression long before I slip of into enternal sleep.

But you keep telling yourself, you're a better person because you pray and follow Jesus teachings!