[Politics] General Election 2024 - 4th July

[Machiavelli]

well, left of centre, not left. I think the best thing is to bounce from centre left to centre right without straying too far from the centre.

Centrism is, I guess, about being practical. It just tries to make life better - or, perhaps, easier, or perhaps even, just stable and predictable - within the paradigm of what our country is. Not perfect, but not bad. Most of us don't really want to worry about politics, there's far more fun things to do with our lives. Just keep the economy rolling to stop prices going up and wages going down, fund the NHS and the schools and the police, ensure there are enough jobs to go round and provide opportunities for young people to fulfil their potential, make sure we can live on our pension and have a safety net when times get hard, make sure interest rates are low enough our mortgages are affordable and high enough that we can save for a rainy day, treat poverty seriously, ensure employers treat employees fairly, authorities treat the public fairly, and otherwise don't interfere too much in our lives. And then we can go to the pub, or out on a date, or watch the football, or take the kids to the zoo, or walk in the park, or read a good book, or whatever, without having to fret about politics. The past ten years have just been TOO MUCH!

A competent centrist government can do that with their eyes closed. The left and right, by contrast, are constantly trying to woo us with promises of more. They are driven by idealism and political theory, by a distant utopia that they are convinced will be a panacea for all our problems. But it becomes divisive and argumentative and is always doomed to failure because there are forces that will always bring it back to the centre, and whether its Truss or Corbyn or hard-Brexit or socialism - they never fully succeed and we instead suffer turmoil while they try. The further away from the centre you go, the more the other side fight back, and then you get culture wars, and no-one enjoys those.

Its not that I don't want some of these things that are important to ME, but I'm quite content to have a competent, inoffensive, centrist government. If we had had that in perpetuity we wouldn't have privatised the railways, we wouldn't have Brexit, we wouldn't have non-dom tax loopholes and others. The right have certainly been better at getting their ideology through.

Thats the main point. The other is that the left has a set of values and positions, and the right has a set of values and positions. And it seems to be one size fits all and you have to have ideological purity. So if, like me, you find yourselves in support of some policies from the left and some policies from the right, the centre is the only logical place to end up.

I get all that, while not being with all of it. What you've described as what the public broadly wants is probably in line with what the public wants. Where I differ quite fundamentally is that, at times, things get thrown off course and go into crisis (this has characterised the last 15 years of British politics) and, when that happens, you need to shift fundamentally. This is what happened in 1945 and 1979. Attlee and Thatcher didn't govern from the centre, they were conviction politicians that fundamentally transformed the UK. Without such a transformation now, we will continue with the division and rancour. So one thing I'm saying is that you and others that are extremists of the centre are perpetuating what you don't want to see. Ditto Starmer, I suspect.
Anyway, we'll see.

 

[GJN1]

Yes, but Labour crashed the economy. They literally left a note saying there wasn't any money left

Nothing to do with a global financial crisis not seen since the Depression?

 

[jcdenton08]

I get all that, while not being with all of it. What you've described as what the public broadly wants is probably in line with what the public wants. Where I differ quite fundamentally is that, at times, things get thrown off course and go into crisis (this has characterised the last 15 years of British politics) and, when that happens, you need to shift fundamentally. This is what happened in 1945 and 1979. Attlee and Thatcher didn't govern from the centre, they were conviction politicians that fundamentally transformed the UK. Without such a transformation now, we will continue with the division and rancour. So one thing I'm saying is that you and others that are extremists of the centre are perpetuating what you don't want to see. Ditto Starmer, I suspect.
Anyway, we'll see.

Personally I don’t agree with this, because the Tories are so far right now the last thing we need another, different kind of extreme politics.

We need a boring, sensible PM and cabinet wearing grey suits and sensible ties, doing boring things very quietly.

I’d argue a shift to the centre and away from the extremes of the left or right are exactly what’s needed in stabilising the country and getting the loonies from both sides out of the equation.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Yes, but Labour crashed the economy. They literally left a note saying there wasn't any money left

Well, with that logic the Tories caused Covid!

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Well, with that logic the Tories caused Covid!

Sake. You'll be blaming them for Brexit next!

 

[peterward]

well, left of centre, not left. I think the best thing is to bounce from centre left to centre right without straying too far from the centre.

Centrism is, I guess, about being practical. It just tries to make life better - or, perhaps, easier, or perhaps even, just stable and predictable - within the paradigm of what our country is. Not perfect, but not bad. Most of us don't really want to worry about politics, there's far more fun things to do with our lives. Just keep the economy rolling to stop prices going up and wages going down, fund the NHS and the schools and the police, ensure there are enough jobs to go round and provide opportunities for young people to fulfil their potential, make sure we can live on our pension and have a safety net when times get hard, make sure interest rates are low enough our mortgages are affordable and high enough that we can save for a rainy day, treat poverty seriously, ensure employers treat employees fairly, authorities treat the public fairly, and otherwise don't interfere too much in our lives. And then we can go to the pub, or out on a date, or watch the football, or take the kids to the zoo, or walk in the park, or read a good book, or whatever, without having to fret about politics. The past ten years have just been TOO MUCH!

A competent centrist government can do that with their eyes closed. The left and right, by contrast, are constantly trying to woo us with promises of more. They are driven by idealism and political theory, by a distant utopia that they are convinced will be a panacea for all our problems. But it becomes divisive and argumentative and is always doomed to failure because there are forces that will always bring it back to the centre, and whether its Truss or Corbyn or hard-Brexit or socialism - they never fully succeed and we instead suffer turmoil while they try. The further away from the centre you go, the more the other side fight back, and then you get culture wars, and no-one enjoys those.

Its not that I don't want some of these things that are important to ME, but I'm quite content to have a competent, inoffensive, centrist government. If we had had that in perpetuity we wouldn't have privatised the railways, we wouldn't have Brexit, we wouldn't have non-dom tax loopholes and others. The right have certainly been better at getting their ideology through.

Thats the main point. The other is that the left has a set of values and positions, and the right has a set of values and positions. And it seems to be one size fits all and you have to have ideological purity. So if, like me, you find yourselves in support of some policies from the left and some policies from the right, the centre is the only logical place to end up.

What an excellent post.

In a nutshell.

Will people really argue against social democracy? in fairness in incresaing manufacturing, in renationalising some industries, stopping the fire sale of UK companies to foreign entities, social housing etc...

But achieving those aims is not necessarily best served by typical left wing social economic models or ideological socialist taxation increases that may bring less to the exchequer overall not more and are often counter productive in the global economic system as is.

Still think of myself as centrist whilst socially a bit more left leaning and fiscally more right leaning. I don't like the fact that Labour and Conservative are both beholden to vested interests of trade Unions and wealthy donors.

 

[drew]

I've just looked and Reform are putting up candidates in 93% of seats (Lab, Con, Libs all doing 97%). That is an awful lot of money that someone somewhere is writing off supporting Nigel Farage's private company in it's attempt to win a parliamentary seat. After all, Nige always claims to be skint. I wonder

Richard Tice is the banker.

His current partner is Elizabeth Oakeshott!!

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I get all that, while not being with all of it. What you've described as what the public broadly wants is probably in line with what the public wants. Where I differ quite fundamentally is that, at times, things get thrown off course and go into crisis (this has characterised the last 15 years of British politics) and, when that happens, you need to shift fundamentally. This is what happened in 1945 and 1979. Attlee and Thatcher didn't govern from the centre, they were conviction politicians that fundamentally transformed the UK. Without such a transformation now, we will continue with the division and rancour. So one thing I'm saying is that you and others that are extremists of the centre are perpetuating what you don't want to see. Ditto Starmer, I suspect.
Anyway, we'll see.

Maybe. I guess my point is that if we had proper centrism we wouldn't have had the past ten years, and your point is that because we've had the past ten years a return to centrism won't help fix it.

I agree there is merit in that point. I would like to reverse a lot of what they've done. I don't think it is a sufficient rejection of the centrism 'ideology' though.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I've just looked and Reform are putting up candidates in 93% of seats (Lab, Con, Libs all doing 97%). That is an awful lot of money that someone somewhere is writing off supporting Nigel Farage's private company in it's attempt to win a parliamentary seat. After all, Nige always claims to be skint. I wonder

When he ran the Brexit Ltd campaign in the 2019 election, the candidates paid their own deposits. Every single one lost that money when he made a deal with Johnson not to field any.
i don’t know how he manages to con so many people, I honestly don’t. His supporters won’t see a single penny but will still hang on his every word. They’re not thick but just won’t admit they’ve been conned.

 

[AlbionBro]

Richard Tice is the banker.

His current partner is Elizabeth Oakeshott!!

Who is Elizabeth Oakeshott?

 

[Bodian]

Who is Elizabeth Oakeshott?

Elizabeth = Isabel

 

[AlbionBro]

Elizabeth = Isabel

Sorry none the wiser, is she a billionaire?

 

[drew]

Who is Elizabeth Oakeshott?

slip of the keyboard, Isabel.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It’s worth a listen for the laughter.

 

[Bodian]

It’s worth a listen for the laughter.

There's only one party to blame for the country not being on its feet in the first place!

 

[schmunk]

Sorry none the wiser, is she a billionaire?

She's a well-known right-wing journalist, as a quick Google would demonstrate.

 

[AlbionBro]

She's a well-known right-wing journalist, as a quick Google would demonstrate.

Thanks, sorry I thought the chap was suggesting she was funding those right wingers.

 

[A1X]

It’s worth a listen for the laughter.

Love the absolute bewilderment at the laughter followed by the “I know best, actually” of “I’ll say that again…”

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Richard Tice is the banker.

His current partner is Elizabeth Oakeshott!!

I think you've made a spelling mistake there.

 

[BLOCK F]

I don't think she has ever played fast and loose on or with anyone or anything

No, she doesn’t look the type, but you never know!