General Election 2017

[ManOfSussex]

I think war would still have been inevitable given Stalin's voracious appetite to extend the Soviet Empire westward. Your alternative scenario does open up the question of whether the Germans and British would have fought as allies.

The Soviets never wanted war with The British Empire directly. Too complex. Stalin and Churchill's percentages agreement showed what might have happened.

 

[The Rivet]

We didn't need to start much in 1938 on the French/German border or or in the north sea. A single front on either backed by Soviet disapproval that would have come at Berlin's action's,with Royal and French Naval action...........We didn't though. We didn't and we achieved such greatness at Singapore and everywhere after instead.

There were four distinct phases of the blockade by the Royal Navy. The first period was from the beginning of European hostilities in September 1939 to the end of the "Phoney War," during which the Allies and Axis Powers both intercepted neutral merchant ships to seize deliveries en route to the enemy. The blockade was rendered less effective because the Axis could get crucial materials from the Soviet Union until June 1941.

History proves that wasn't possible in 1939.

 

[Buzzer]

The Soviets never wanted war with The British Empire directly. Too complex. Stalin and Churchill's percentages agreement showed what might have happened.

I agree but I still think Poland and the Baltic states would have seen blood shed upon its soil. I was interested to read your discussions about Czech military capabilities. I was recently reading up on the Polish army at the battle of Krojanty. A cavalry charge against tanks. Bloody hell.

 

[ManOfSussex]

There were four distinct phases of the blockade by the Royal Navy. The first period was from the beginning of European hostilities in September 1939 to the end of the "Phoney War," during which the Allies and Axis Powers both intercepted neutral merchant ships to seize deliveries en route to the enemy. The blockade was rendered less effective because the Axis could get crucial materials from the Soviet Union until June 1941.

History proves that wasn't possible in 1939.

1938 does though. hat's when The Tories really shafted their own people, us, and all of Europe- in particular selling eastern Europe to hell. There was an alternative way,but that gets forgotten because of everything after. Engage in Europe, lead the way..............nope it's The Tories and they've got to in-fight over it instead. Brexit means Brexit.

 

[The Rivet]

1938 does though. hat's when The Tories really shafted their own people, us, and all of Europe- in particular selling eastern Europe to hell. There was an alternative way,but that gets forgotten because of everything after. Engage in Europe, lead the way..............nope it's The Tories and they've got to in-fight over it instead. Brexit means Brexit.

Not buying it. Leave history and the war and just bitch about now. You hate the tories. OK we get it. They will get a landslide. You will be pissed off even more. Things we have to deal with huh?........

 

[ManOfSussex]

I agree but I still think Poland and the Baltic states would have seen blood shed upon its soil. I was interested to read your discussions about Czech military capabilities. I was recently reading up on the Polish army at the battle of Krojanty. A cavalry charge against tanks. Bloody hell.

You're right. 800 British soldiers in Estonia right now doesn't stop that. When I visited Auschwitz I learned that Polish Calvary Officers died there for fighting The Nazis on horseback......................We fought all this. The EU is what it is - Poland is in The EU - Germany is in The EU - The UK should be in The EU - it is what it is - we should be part of it with our friends who love and respect this country. There isn't a major war ever in Europe that a British soldier hasn't died in. What's done is done in terms of Brexit, but our friends out there in Europe don't understand what we've done. Never mind.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Not buying it. Leave history and the war and just bitch about now. You hate the tories. OK we get it. They will get a landslide. You will be pissed off even more. Things we have to deal with huh?........

Fine. You've summed it up. As I say, I congratulate you and all other Conservatives in advance of your victory next month. I'm sure we'll be fine. Again, I don't hate The Tories per se, it's difficult to see these days whay anyone would vot for them though, particularly if you don't hate The NHS. Never mind though, we've got our country back.

 

[The Rivet]

Fine. You've summed it up. As I say, I congratulate you and all other Conservatives in advance of your victory next month. I'm sure we'll be fine. Again, I don't hate The Tories per se, it's difficult not to these days though, particularly as I don't hate The NHS. Never mind though, we've got our country back.

I am not a conservative.

Happy to chat about ww2 anytime though.

 

[GT49er]

I disagree, but I'm not getting into an argument with you over this. WW2 could have been avoided in 1938, just like a decisive victory at Jutland would have ended the first war early.

Yes, we're obviously going to have to disagree on this one (and on Jutland!) But that's two historical arguments at variance with each other - a battle of 'what ifs' - no quarrel! And I hope you don't think any comments of mine in any way disrespected those who died, and those who fought - I'm very aware of the sacrifices they made, as this may demonstrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7OpMwbPnck

Brexit now - that's another matter altogether, nothing to do with Chamberlain and Munich. We won't agree, but I'm not going there tonight.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I am not a conservative.

Neither am I. We both support Albion too. Who are you voting for next month?

 

[The Rivet]

Neither am I. We both support Albion too. Who are you voting for next month?

Tony Bloom, whatever party he chooses.............

 

[Buzzer]

You're right. 800 British soldiers in Estonia right now doesn't stop that. When I visited Auschwitz I learned that Polish Calvary Officers died there for fighting The Nazis on horseback......................We fought all this. The EU is what it is - Poland is in The EU - Germany is in The EU - The UK should be in The EU - it is what it is - we should be part of it with our friends who love and respect this country. There isn't a major war in Europe a British soldier hasn't died in. What's done is done in terms of Brexit, but our friends out here in Europe don't understand what we've done.

For me, rather than the EU it's NATO that is the legacy that should be treasured. The EU should just be a trading block and if it were then I'd be firmly for us remaining.

Getting back to our WWII discussion and Polish involvement, it's pretty universally acknowledged that Turing's team played a huge part in shortening the war but unbeknownst to Turing, 3 Poles had already cracked an earlier version of the machine and I seem to remember that 2 of those Poles later worked at Bletchley and tried to join Turing's team but couldn't pass the security clearance,

 

[ManOfSussex]

Yes, we're obviously going to have to disagree on this one (and on Jutland!) But that's two historical arguments at variance with each other - a battle of 'what ifs' - no quarrel! And I hope you don't think any comments of mine in any way disrespected those who died, and those who fought - I'm very aware of the sacrifices they made, as this may demonstrate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7OpMwbPnck

Brexit now - that's another matter altogether, nothing to do with Chamberlain and Munich. We won't agree, but I'm not going there tonight.

You wont find my viewpoint on WW2 any different to yours. I know you're as proud of your uncle as I am of my Great-Uncle and I know that feeling applies reciprocally for both of us.

 

[ManOfSussex]

For me, rather than the EU it's NATO that is the legacy that should be treasured. The EU should just be a trading block and if it were then I'd be firmly for us remaining.

Getting back to our WWII discussion and Polish involvement, it's pretty universally acknowledged that Turing's team played a huge part in shortening the war but unbeknownst to Turing, 3 Poles had already cracked an earlier version of the machine and I seem to remember that 2 of those Poles later worked at Bletchley and tried to join Turing's team but couldn't pass the security clearance,

I don't disagree with you.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I am not a conservative.

Happy to chat about ww2 anytime though.

I love WW2 my most recent reading was on "Operation Hailstone" in the Pacific- but it's late and i'm off to bed soon.....

May have to have an official WW2 thread or something similar.

 

[Buzzer]

1938 does though. hat's when The Tories really shafted their own people, us, and all of Europe- in particular selling eastern Europe to hell. There was an alternative way,but that gets forgotten because of everything after. Engage in Europe, lead the way..............nope it's The Tories and they've got to in-fight over it instead. Brexit means Brexit.

We've got the benefit of hindsight to see why Chamberlain was wrong but at that time in 1938, the likes of Attlee and Churchill were not exactly in step with British popular opinion. The UK didn't want a war at that time and you only have to see the photos who mobbed Chamberlain on his return to see how popular the agreement was across the nation. This was an opinion poll taken in 1938 showing UK support so I'm not sure it's fair to accuse Chamberlain of shafting the UK when his decision broadly reflected it.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.u...f-ww2/public-opinion-and-appeasement-in-1938/

 

[Buzzer]

Saying that though, the other side to the coin is that Chamberlain was privy to a lot more information than the British public and should have known what Hitler was planning . There's a brilliant BBC documentary on iPlayer currently with Brian Cox talking about Russia where he interviews the son of Fitzroy Maclean. Maclean had a source in the German embassy in Moscow who was able to give accurate and up-to-date information about the certainty of war and the possibility of a Russian-German axis.

If Chamberlain had got that information, and he may well not have, then yes, Chamberlain was guilty of everything he is accused of.

 

[The Rivet]

Saying that though, the other side to the coin is that Chamberlain was privy to a lot more information than the British public and should have known what Hitler was planning . There's a brilliant BBC documentary on iPlayer currently with Brian Cox talking about Russia where he interviews the son of Fitzroy Maclean. Maclean had a source in the German embassy who was able to give accurate and up-to-date information about the certainty of war and the possibility of a Russian-German axis.

If Chamberlain had got that information, and he may well not have, then yes, Chamberlain was guilty of everything he is accused of.

I'll give that Docu a watch. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Gwylan]

We've got the benefit of hindsight to see why Chamberlain was wrong but at that time in 1938, the likes of Attlee and Churchill were not exactly in step with British popular opinion. The UK didn't want a war at that time and you only have to see the photos who mobbed Chamberlain on his return to see how popular the agreement was across the nation.

Absolutely this. I don't think any of us on NSC will remember the mood in the mid-30s but WW1 had devastated the nation and no-one was in the mood for another. You have to realise also that the UK was still in hock to the Americans for that war (Chamberlain was looking for a haircut and Roosevelt wouldn't give him one) so there wasn't the money to spend either.

Saying that though, the other side to the coin is that Chamberlain was privy to a lot more information than the British public and should have known what Hitler was planning .

That may be true but all the evidence also suggested that Hitler wanted no war with the UK and, indeed, sued for peace in 1940. Chamberlain may have been persuaded that Hitler wanted no war ... as that was the case.

That documentary sounds interesting - do you know what it's called?

 

[The Rivet]

Absolutely this. I don't think any of us on NSC will remember the mood in the mid-30s but WW1 had devastated the nation and no-one was in the mood for another. You have to realise also that the UK was still in hock to the Americans for that war (Chamberlain was looking for a haircut and Roosevelt wouldn't give him one) so there wasn't the money to spend either.



That may be true but all the evidence also suggested that Hitler wanted no war with the UK and, indeed, sued for peace in 1940. Chamberlain may have been persuaded that Hitler wanted no war ... as that was the case.

That documentary sounds interesting - do you know what it's called?

I am not moaning but those of us interested don't necessarily remember but are at least aware of.

Watching part one of the docu now. Very interesting, especially if you're Scottish.