[Sussex] Fullers buy Dark Star

[PILTDOWN MAN]

they were, any sources? the American hops used today for strong bittering wouldn't have been, as they've been bred in the past 40-50 years.

APA (American Pale Ale)


Popular Brands: BrewdogBeavertownMagic RockKonaWeird Beard

It was the American craft brewers who picked up the legacy of India Pale Ales and reintroducing heavily hopped beers, except why simply replicate a somewhat neglected British style when so many great hops are available in the USA? Hops such as Cascade and Centennial characterise this style of stronger (around 5%) full-flavoured and heavily hopped beer, with brewers such as Sierra Nevada and and Anchor pioneering the style in the early 1980s. Today you’ll find this clean, hoppy style made (with American hops) all over the world.
The legacy in question dates back to the 19th century when strong hoppy beer (though not as hopped as some you’ll find these days!) from Britain was sent out to colonial India, benefiting from the conditions of the journey by sea, and gaining popularity ahead of other pale ales and beers of the time. Eventually Hodgson’s introduced their East India Pale Ale to the UK market, made fashionable by the interest in the empire and all things from India during the reign of Queen Victoria. Even back then some American hops were used, alongside those from Europe, although a majority of favoured English hops were used. Over the years the style typically became milder, lighter and less hopped until relatively recently.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Absolute cobblers! American pale ale was popularised by the Sierra Nevada brewery in the early 80's.

The high ibu hops used in an APA style beer didn't exist in Victorian times.

Ok if you know best, I better resign my position in the brewery.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Ok if you know best, I better resign my position in the brewery.

I thought it’s common knowledge that the high IBU hops, and the consequent style we now know as APA, is recent-ish? Your post above certainly suggests US hops were used in the UK in Victorian times but these were clearly in the minority (according to your post) and certainly not the type we currently associate with APA as they didn’t exist. APA is a recent beer.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I thought it’s common knowledge that the high IBU hops, and the consequent style we now know as APA, is recent-ish? Your post above certainly suggests US hops were used in the UK in Victorian times but these were clearly in the minority (according to your post) and certainly not the type we currently associate with APA as they didn’t exist. APA is a recent beer.

Whilst I don't disagree APA is only 30 to 40 years old in its current guise, the point I maintain as we have posted about before, this still isn't suddenly a new way of brewing. Beer has been brewed for an extremely long time. Originally gruit was used (spices and herbs) to flavour beer. The other ingredients were water and barley. Hopping was discovered by monks who firstly found the beer had an improved life span but also it help bitter the ale and increased its aroma. Yeast hadn't been discovered at this point.

As time moved on yeast was introduced and the four main ingredients of beer as we know it was set, barley, hops, yeast, water. All of these varied from country to country and area to area. The toasting of barley, the type of water, the hop derivatives, the yeast culture meant each beer was very varied in it taste, colour and aroma. Some yeast bottom fermented some top. Some hops flavoured some only changed the aroma. These four ingredients without any further additions had so many variables it led us to where we are today.

Down the years and especially in the last 120 years with or without the Temperance movement in the UK and prohibition in the US we have had many swings in the strength and also the type (flavour) of our beers. Each and every master brewer will stamp his mark on his brew. This has meant beer has evolved and this is where "craft" sits, it IS a fad in the long history of brewing. Preferences will change again, perhaps the westernisation of Japanese/Chinese rice beers could be next. Who knows?

Those that speak of Fullers producing granddad's favourite are doing them a dis-service they have produced beers that have passed the test of time and will continue to do so, but brewers adding a new brew is an expensive business and that is why they buy up smaller brewers who have challenged the market. Once under the umbrella of a bigger brewer the standard brew tends to become more reliable.

Unfortunately there now appears to be a snob factor associated to drinking ale, each attempting to out do each other. My experience tells me perfect two to three brews and then you will succeed. Too many try too much in the start up and eventually fail.

 

[mefromringmer]

I can wait for the Sussex Beer festival in March 22 = 24, over 170 real ales and at the Sussex bar is back. 60 breweries in the county now.Its on at Brighton racecourse.

 

[beorhthelm]

...Yeast hadn't been discovered at this point.

a commendable history of beer, except this point. given alcohol and yeast were common knowledge for centuries (possibly millennia) are you sure?

on another note, interesting theory i read was the hops became popular because many herbs led to behaviors not becoming of monks, a bit energetic, randy or hallucinogenic. hops have a sedative affect more conducive to monastic life

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

a commendable history of beer, except this point. given alcohol and yeast were common knowledge for centuries (possibly millennia) are you sure?

on another note, interesting theory i read was the hops became popular because many herbs led to behaviors not becoming of monks, a bit energetic, randy or hallucinogenic. hops have a sedative affect more conducive to monastic life

Yeast was used by Egyptians in bread 5000 years ago but believed it a miracle, its was first discovered in1680 using a microscope, Leeuwenhoeck observed beer yeast globules for the first time. But it was not until 1857 and the work of French scientist, Pasteur, that the fermentation process was understood. Pasteur believed that the agents responsible for fermentation were yeasts. He established the key role of yeast as the micro-organism responsible for alcoholic fermentation

Therefore yeast wasn't added as an ingredient but formed in small amounts unbeknown to the brewer.
.

He unveiled these mysteries by proving that the yeast cell
can live with or without oxygen. Pasteur understood very early on that yeast was indispensable for forming bread's aromas and flavours.

Baker's yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, has imposed itself, throughout history and worldwide, as the best way to make dough rise.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Anyone down New Forest way look out for Brockenhurst Brewery, Trevor the head brewer will love to talk to you (endlessly) You can drink it in a few pubs around the area.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Whilst I don't disagree APA is only 30 to 40 years old in its current guise, the point I maintain as we have posted about before, this still isn't suddenly a new way of brewing. Beer has been brewed for an extremely long time. Originally gruit was used (spices and herbs) to flavour beer. The other ingredients were water and barley. Hopping was discovered by monks who firstly found the beer had an improved life span but also it help bitter the ale and increased its aroma. Yeast hadn't been discovered at this point.

As time moved on yeast was introduced and the four main ingredients of beer as we know it was set, barley, hops, yeast, water. All of these varied from country to country and area to area. The toasting of barley, the type of water, the hop derivatives, the yeast culture meant each beer was very varied in it taste, colour and aroma. Some yeast bottom fermented some top. Some hops flavoured some only changed the aroma. These four ingredients without any further additions had so many variables it led us to where we are today.

Down the years and especially in the last 120 years with or without the Temperance movement in the UK and prohibition in the US we have had many swings in the strength and also the type (flavour) of our beers. Each and every master brewer will stamp his mark on his brew. This has meant beer has evolved and this is where "craft" sits, it IS a fad in the long history of brewing. Preferences will change again, perhaps the westernisation of Japanese/Chinese rice beers could be next. Who knows?

Those that speak of Fullers producing granddad's favourite are doing them a dis-service they have produced beers that have passed the test of time and will continue to do so, but brewers adding a new brew is an expensive business and that is why they buy up smaller brewers who have challenged the market. Once under the umbrella of a bigger brewer the standard brew tends to become more reliable.

Unfortunately there now appears to be a snob factor associated to drinking ale, each attempting to out do each other. My experience tells me perfect two to three brews and then you will succeed. Too many try too much in the start up and eventually fail.

Last two paragraphs aside, I don’t think anyone is, or will, disagree with this.

Now, the last two paragraphs. What do you mean by reliable? I can only think you mean reproduced more consistently? Obviously you can get this issue with new and small craft breweries but I have rarely noticed an issue with bigger ones.

And I’m not convinced “each is attempting to out do each other”. Sure the scene is very inventive and creative but it’s not necessarily about getting one up on your rival. And something which characterizes the craft scene is brewery collaborations; it’s extensive, deep and broad. This suggested the same. I could also list you numerous craft breweries which have more than 3 brews and have “succeeded”.

And yes there is some snobbery. I totally get this. But “now”? This has always been the case with the real ale scene.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Last two paragraphs aside, I don’t think anyone is, or will, disagree with this.

Now, the last two paragraphs. What do you mean by reliable? I can only think you mean reproduced more consistently? Obviously you can get this issue with new and small craft breweries but I have rarely noticed an issue with bigger ones.

And I’m not convinced “each is attempting to out do each other”. Sure the scene is very inventive and creative but it’s not necessarily about getting one up on your rival. And something which characterizes the craft scene is brewery collaborations; it’s extensive, deep and broad. This suggested the same. I could also list you numerous craft breweries which have more than 3 brews and have “succeeded”.

And yes there is some snobbery. I totally get this. But “now”? This has always been the case with the real ale scene.

I do mean consistency yes, and that's always been the issue and that follows by my assertion about 2 to 3 brews. Get those right and consistent then you have a brewery. Too many fail by throwing all and sundry out there and their reputation diminishes. Many a time a landlord will agree to a new breweries ale and it sells,next time same brewery new brew and he chucks it away. There wont be a next time. Simple don't run before you can walk.

The scene is, as you say creative but in reality most things have been tried down the years however the market hasn't followed it. Not sure there's been a snobbery down the year regarding ale, but more like typical reaction of the older generation know best. They don't but they loved telling the youth they weren't real men unless they drunk warm ale. The worst were/are CAMRA, who normally succeed in speaking absolute rubbish on every subject surrounding ale. The worst being their beer festivals, where old bearded beer bellied blokes with pewter jugs attempt to comment on their stewed warm ale that's been badly conditioned in a hot tent in the middle of a field.

Ale should be served at 8 degrees, personally I prefer it slightly colder at 6 but certainly not warm, that's wrong.

Am I a beer snob? No I just appreciate what the brewer wants you to taste. I look after the quality of high end keg products for a well known brewer, myself and five others set the specifications for these beers that are sold in this country, I fully understand the master brewers ideas, I however would not drink any as they are not to my taste as I prefer a live ale.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I do mean consistency yes, and that's always been the issue and that follows by my assertion about 2 to 3 brews. Get those right and consistent then you have a brewery. Too many fail by throwing all and sundry out there and their reputation diminishes. Many a time a landlord will agree to a new breweries ale and it sells,next time same brewery new brew and he chucks it away. There wont be a next time. Simple don't run before you can walk.

I get what you’re saying here but I’m not sure it’s always applicable to the craft scene. Some hugely internationally successful brewers, such as Omnipollo, Mikkeller and Wild Beer, are celebrated and successful because they don’t have a core range as such but do “throw all and sundry out there”. Some works, by the nature of experimentation some doesn’t. And many are also gypsy brewers so their consistency can vary if the same beer is brewed across different kit. The craft pubs seem to accept this to a degree. Obviously if you continually churn out stuff that doesn’t work/sell you won’t get invited back but the scene, from my experience, is far more tolerant than you suggest.

And you said too many fail. I must admit I don’t have any figures for failure. But equally many many are succeeding. Sussex alone now has a high number of what we can call established small brewers with some, like Long Man and Burning Star having broken out of Sussex.

And lastly, this all might be, you emphatically stated, a fad. I have no idea. But, first in the US, then the U.K., and now across the world from Germany and Italy to NZ, and Japan its a juggernaut which shows no sign of stopping any time soon. I’m just gonna enjoy it and celebrate the fact Britain is a huge and influential player. Cheers ��

Long live craft.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

APA (American Pale Ale)


Popular Brands: BrewdogBeavertownMagic RockKonaWeird Beard

It was the American craft brewers who picked up the legacy of India Pale Ales and reintroducing heavily hopped beers, except why simply replicate a somewhat neglected British style when so many great hops are available in the USA? Hops such as Cascade and Centennial characterise this style of stronger (around 5%) full-flavoured and heavily hopped beer, with brewers such as Sierra Nevada and and Anchor pioneering the style in the early 1980s. Today you’ll find this clean, hoppy style made (with American hops) all over the world.
The legacy in question dates back to the 19th century when strong hoppy beer (though not as hopped as some you’ll find these days!) from Britain was sent out to colonial India, benefiting from the conditions of the journey by sea, and gaining popularity ahead of other pale ales and beers of the time. Eventually Hodgson’s introduced their East India Pale Ale to the UK market, made fashionable by the interest in the empire and all things from India during the reign of Queen Victoria. Even back then some American hops were used, alongside those from Europe, although a majority of favoured English hops were used. Over the years the style typically became milder, lighter and less hopped until relatively recently.

It was my understanding that the early craft brewers in the US were trying to recreate beers they had had in the UK. They were strongly inspired by the CAMRA ethos. Trouble was the traditional English hops weren't available to them so they used what they had and thus mostly by accident created a more aromatic style of pale ale

 

[Questions]

I get what you’re saying here but I’m not sure it’s always applicable to the craft scene. Some hugely internationally successful brewers, such as Omnipollo, Mikkeller and Wild Beer, are celebrated and successful because they don’t have a core range as such but do “throw all and sundry out there”. Some works, by the nature of experimentation some doesn’t. And many are also gypsy brewers so their consistency can vary if the same beer is brewed across different kit. The craft pubs seem to accept this to a degree. Obviously if you continually churn out stuff that doesn’t work/sell you won’t get invited back but the scene, from my experience, is far more tolerant than you suggest.

And you said too many fail. I must admit I don’t have any figures for failure. But equally many many are succeeding. Sussex alone now has a high number of what we can call established small brewers with some, like Long Man and Burning Star having broken out of Sussex.

And lastly, this all might be, you emphatically stated, a fad. I have no idea. But, first in the US, then the U.K., and now across the world from Germany and Italy to NZ, and Japan its a juggernaut which shows no sign of stopping any time soon. I’m just gonna enjoy it and celebrate the fact Britain is a huge and influential player. Cheers ��

Long live craft.

Had a pint of Long Man ... Old Man on wednesday. Lovely to see an Old out there. Knocked Harvey’s Old into a cocked hat.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Had a pint of Long Man ... Old Man on wednesday. Lovely to see an Old out there. Knocked Harvey’s Old into a cocked hat.

I had the same in Parsons Green the other week. It’s also lovely to see them on the London stage. They deserve it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just re-read my post. Apologies for getting a bit state-of-the-nation

 

[Questions]

Took this from the Sierra Nevada site history about Ken Grossman. I tell all the people who I’ve got into Craft or ‘New style brewing’ ( I see it as my life’s work - or boring people as a few fiends say) that this is where it began.

There weren't many hops available for homebrewers in the 1970s, and many were of poor quality. Grossman decided to go straight to the source. He drove from Chico to Yakima, WA, and persuaded hop brokers to sell him 100 pounds of "brewers cuts" - samples sent to breweries to try before purchasing bales. He returned with the whole cone hops and began brewing the hop-forward beers Sierra Nevada is famous for.

It’s a good read in its entirety.

 

[Questions]

Just re-read my post. Apologies for getting a bit state-of-the-nation

What is this London you speak of ? Long Man is a local brewery for local people.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Took this from the Sierra Nevada site history about Ken Grossman. I tell all the people who I’ve got into Craft or ‘New style brewing’ ( I see it as my life’s work - or boring people as a few fiends say) that this is where it began.

There weren't many hops available for homebrewers in the 1970s, and many were of poor quality. Grossman decided to go straight to the source. He drove from Chico to Yakima, WA, and persuaded hop brokers to sell him 100 pounds of "brewers cuts" - samples sent to breweries to try before purchasing bales. He returned with the whole cone hops and began brewing the hop-forward beers Sierra Nevada is famous for.

It’s a good read in its entirety.

Boring people, or “I just want a drink not a bloody lecture” as the wife says before she feigns nodding off.

 

[Questions]

Boring people, or “I just want a drink not a bloody lecture” as the wife says before she feigns nodding off.

If only it were that simple huh HT.

I said to a workmate, “That there are none so blind, as those who will not see”

He called me a boring, patronising c~~~.

I know this is the abuse we have to take in our chosen path. Stay strong brother.

Arrogant ******* in Bierhuis tomorrow yippee.

 

[jakarta]

Had a pint of Long Man ... Old Man on wednesday. Lovely to see an Old out there. Knocked Harvey’s Old into a cocked hat.

Andy Hepworths Old is currently the best attempt in my opinion, very similar to the King & Barnes version for obvious reasons!