Fourth Investec Ashes Test, England v Australia, Chester le Street 9-13 Aug 2013

[spring hall convert]

The thing about KP is that he tends to make his runs under pressure and at important times, probably because he's not afraid of getting out but like many other things in cricket that strength is also his weakness.

It's no secret that the of the others don't like him, especially Swann and his little crew of Anderson, Broad and Bresnan.

That 100 at Headingly against South Africa last year is the most thrilling and skillful innings I have seen from an England batsman in my 20 odd years of cricket viewing, it was quite simply breathtaking watching him treat Steyn and Morkel like they were park trundlers.

 

[keaton]

He and Bennett are good mates, yes, but that's not really relevant to the comparison I'm making. For all I know, KP might be in the throes of a massive bromance with Matt Prior. The point is that all people really base their views of Pietersen on is that he obviously isn't part of the gang, and is often on the sidelines off the pitch. Murray was EXACTLY the same. Never one for BANTS, sat on his own at team parties, etc.

By all accounts him and Prior get on well.

I'm with spring hall convert on the Swann issue. He's a great bowler but he's a bit of a dick, and if the press didn't all love him cos he's 'a character' we'd hear far more stuff about how unprofessional he is.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Agree with what you're saying, we haven't really played well this series. I think it's a reflection of how good this group of players are that we're 3-0 and they've been nowhere near their best.

That said, I honestly can't see how you enjoy watching cricket. You've been on this thread moaning about team selection, run rates and captaincy (amongst other things) for the entire 5 days, what is ever going to be good enough for you?

We're not going to win every match by an innings. They have a very good group of bowlers who I'd say are pretty much on a par with ours with the big exception of Swann/Lyon (although Lyon has been decent), with that being the case every test is going to be close if our batsmen aren't performing.
There is no magic wand to make cook a better captain overnight, to make them score quicker on the first morning of a test, to give Joe Root more experience as a test opener, to stop Trott getting out to unexplainable errors, to make Broad bowl that well every match etc.

I like to have a moan, get over yourself!

 

[spring hall convert]

By all accounts him and Prior get on well.

I'm with spring hall convert on the Swann issue. He's a great bowler but he's a bit of a dick, and if the press didn't all love him cos he's 'a character' we'd hear far more stuff about how unprofessional he is.

Swann of everyone should understand this, given that he p*ssed away nearly 10 years of his test career for being a dick.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Swann of everyone should understand this, given that he p*ssed away nearly 10 years of his test career for being a dick.

Has he been mentoring Samit Patel!?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

. The point is that all people really base their views of Pietersen on is that he obviously isn't part of the gang, and is often on the sidelines off the pitch. Murray was EXACTLY the same. Never one for BANTS, sat on his own at team parties, etc.

Not really. I can't say I like Pieterson because he is quite clearly a narcissist. His whole ‘It’s tough being me speech’ against SA last year and his self evident megalomania when he was Captain resulting in Peter Moores dismissal was why I had him in the Richard Head category of egotistical sportsman. Some of his Innings have been outrageously good but equally his ability to get out against part time bowlers where his disdain for their talents frustrates me – If his ego didn’t get in the way, I think he could have had averages off the charts. I think Cook still has more hundreds but there isn’t much argument about who has the most talent.

As for Swann I follow him on Twitter. He seems to me to be a genuinely funny bloke (Eurovision song contest as an example). Put in this way, I know who I’d rather share a chat and a pint with. Whilst he isn’t exactly professional at times it’s better listening to that than the modern media trained sportsman regurgitating a list of soundbites.

One things for sure – The team is better with Swann and Peiterson in it. All the while we are winning it won’t matter. It’s when we start losing when the cracks may re-appear again.

 

[keaton]

Not really. I can't say I like Pieterson because he is quite clearly a narcissist. His whole ‘It’s tough being me speech’ against SA last year and his self evident megalomania when he was Captain resulting in Peter Moores dismissal was why I had him in the Richard Head category of egotistical sportsman. Some of his Innings have been outrageously good but equally his ability to get out against part time bowlers where his disdain for their talents frustrates me – If his ego didn’t get in the way, I think he could have had averages off the charts. I think Cook still has more hundreds but there isn’t much argument about who has the most talent.

As for Swann I follow him on Twitter. He seems to me to be a genuinely funny bloke (Eurovision song contest as an example). Put in this way, I know who I’d rather share a chat and a pint with. Whilst he isn’t exactly professional at times it’s better listening to that than the modern media trained sportsman regurgitating a list of soundbites.

One things for sure – The team is better with Swann and Peiterson in it. All the while we are winning it won’t matter. It’s when we start losing when the cracks may re-appear again.

If he's clearly a narcassist why doesn't he do many interviews?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Hans - absolutely, to me it's imperative that the young'uns get a game here, I just think England might be wise to use the option to give Taylor a go in place of Pietersen, Bell or Trott. Put it this way, if there were any type of fitness concern surrounding a batsman (and Pietersen's been struggling for fitness of late) then I think we should use the opportunity to look at Taylor. After all, there are all important Winter squad places up for grabs & areas I'm not sure we are totally sure about our cover in.

Hypothetically, say we rest a few of the first teamers, bring in a few hopefuls and it all goes horribly wrong? Australia win the last test, get back a bit of pride. All of a sudden things don't look so bad. "But for the rain we could have won the last 3 tests 2-1".

"Utter shambles" quickly becomes "transition". "Humiliation" for new coach Darren Lehmann quickly becomes "Lehmann beginning to get his message across, sorting out the problems in the camp".

Then, once the series is done, Australia begin to feel better about themselves. England, meanwhile, have a few doubts beginning to creep in.

And I don't see what difference giving Taylor a game against a tired, dispirited Aussie side is going to make in the grand scheme of things. With very little cricket between the end of this series and the start of the next Ashes series the chances are the Top 6 will remain the Top 6 and Taylor will be carrying the drinks for the duration.

All of the above is why we must - barring genuine injury - keep the same side and look to win the series 4-0.

 

[spring hall convert]

Not really. I can't say I like Pieterson because he is quite clearly a narcissist. His whole ‘It’s tough being me speech’ against SA last year and his self evident megalomania when he was Captain resulting in Peter Moores dismissal was why I had him in the Richard Head category of egotistical sportsman. Some of his Innings have been outrageously good but equally his ability to get out against part time bowlers where his disdain for their talents frustrates me – If his ego didn’t get in the way, I think he could have had averages off the charts. I think Cook still has more hundreds but there isn’t much argument about who has the most talent.

As for Swann I follow him on Twitter. He seems to me to be a genuinely funny bloke (Eurovision song contest as an example). Put in this way, I know who I’d rather share a chat and a pint with. Whilst he isn’t exactly professional at times it’s better listening to that than the modern media trained sportsman regurgitating a list of soundbites.

One things for sure – The team is better with Swann and Peiterson in it. All the while we are winning it won’t matter. It’s when we start losing when the cracks may re-appear again.

Was he right about Flower being the better man for the job?
What were his onfield performances like as captain?
How does his test career compare with the greats of English cricket?
Who actually stood up and was counted against SA last year, despite all the hysteria?

I just have a feeling that the rest of the dressing room hate that KP could quit test cricket tomorrow & earn far more money than them in the IPL, I've long been of the opinion that it is petty jealousy.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

If he's clearly a narcassist why doesn't he do many interviews?

I'd imagine England try to keep him away from the camera. He has made the ''It's your country'' comment in an interview (one of those naff lads magazines) and didn't he release his response to the SA debacle on Youtube last year?

 

[spring hall convert]

Hypothetically, say we rest a few of the first teamers, bring in a few hopefuls and it all goes horribly wrong? Australia win the last test, get back a bit of pride. All of a sudden things don't look so bad. "But for the rain we could have won the last 3 tests 2-1".

"Utter shambles" quickly becomes "transition". "Humiliation" for new coach Darren Lehmann quickly becomes "Lehmann beginning to get his message across, sorting out the problems in the camp".

Then, once the series is done, Australia begin to feel better about themselves. England, meanwhile, have a few doubts beginning to creep in.

And I don't see what difference giving Taylor a game against a tired, dispirited Aussie side is going to make in the grand scheme of things. With very little cricket between the end of this series and the start of the next Ashes series the chances are the Top 6 will remain the Top 6 and Taylor will be carrying the drinks for the duration.

All of the above is why we must - barring genuine injury - keep the same side and look to win the series 4-0.

I get where you are coming from but the Aussies generally let us win one in the dark old days and it didn't seem to do them much harm. It was only really in 06/07they went for the humiliation.

The Oval usually turns - any chance of us playimng 2 spinners?

 

[Billy the Fish]

I feel a bit sorry for KP sometimes. It's been said before that he just wants to be loved, his public image as an egotist obviously hurts him a bit. Whatever he does it's impossible to shake it off now - if he goes with it and acts confident it just affirms the image, if he tries to show some humility people see it as false.

He obviously isn't one of the lads, he's just not that sort of bloke. There's a brilliant interview that Flintoff did with him for 5live.

As for Swann, he's genuinely funny and his video diary on the last Ashes tour was hilarious. He clearly rubs people up the wrong way though, and I'd imagine if you didn't get on with him he'd be a right c0ck, Gough punched him on tour once!

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Was he right about Flower being the better man for the job?
What were his onfield performances like as captain?
How does his test career compare with the greats of English cricket?
Who actually stood up and was counted against SA last year, despite all the hysteria?
I just have a feeling that the rest of the dressing room hate that KP could quit test cricket tomorrow & earn far more money than them in the IPL, I've long been of the opinion that it is petty jealousy.

I think he was only captain for 3 tests and in one of those got himself out trying to smash a 6 to get his hundred. He has a splendid average but as I've said above - I believe this could have been off the charts if he didn't do stuff like trying to cart a 6 for his hundred. As again, you say his Innings against SA was superb but what use is that if you get yourself dropped for the next test?

I don't doubt that some of the last sentence is true especially now Cricketers are starting to earn mega salaries, however, he probably doesn't help himself either.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I get where you are coming from but the Aussies generally let us win one in the dark old days and it didn't seem to do them much harm. It was only really in 06/07they went for the humiliation.

The Oval usually turns - any chance of us playimng 2 spinners?

I think you're rewriting history a bit. I don't recall much charity from the Aussies, and I don't believe any of their side could afford to ease off with the strength in depth they had at their disposal. I think it was more a case of England play best at The Oval and when the pressure in a series is off. England had some excellent players in the sides that lost to Australia, and this is testament to the sheer quality of that great Australian dynasty from 1989 - 2007.

I don't think 2005 will ever be bettered though.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I don't think 2005 will ever be bettered though.

In terms of the excitement and the way the whole country felt involved, it never will. Simply because 2005 was all on free to air TV.

 

[spring hall convert]

I think he was only captain for 3 tests and in one of those got himself out trying to smash a 6 to get his hundred. He has a splendid average but as I've said above - I believe this could have been off the charts if he didn't do stuff like trying to cart a 6 for his hundred. As again, you say his Innings against SA was superb but what use is that if you get yourself dropped for the next test?

I don't doubt that some of the last sentence is true especially now Cricketers are starting to earn mega salaries, however, he probably doesn't help himself either.

"Got himself dropped?" Wasn't that more to do with the scandalously poor way the ECB handled that situation. The dressing room needed their heads banging together internally, not just dumping on Pietersen at the first available opportunity rather than risk upsetting the Swann/Anderson/Bresnan clique.

I also felt their treatment of him after the captaincy debacle was heavy handed & heartless. In hindsight his assertions about Flower are being proved to be correct, are they not?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

"Got himself dropped?" Wasn't that more to do with the scandalously poor way the ECB handled that situation. The dressing room needed their heads banging together internally, not just dumping on Pietersen at the first available opportunity rather than risk upsetting the Swann/Anderson/Bresnan clique.

I also felt their treatment of him after the captaincy debacle was heavy handed & heartless. In hindsight his assertions about Flower are being proved to be correct, are they not?

On reflection, you may have a point in the first line. I answered my own earlier question in that the KP genius twitter account was written by a mate of Broad's who was openly engaging with the account and was giving KP a hard time. I can understand his reaction. He must have also been stitched up the South Africans who then released the messages. Where my sympathy runs out is the youtube video afterwards and the constant retiring / not retiring for ODI's. I just don't think he helps himself although the ECB probably need to look back at how they handled it as well.

With regards to Flower, he has been a resounding success but the way he went about the whole business was quite clearly wrong. Pieterson, like Flintoff before him are just not Captain material.

 

[spring hall convert]

On reflection, you may have a point in the first line. I answered my own earlier question in that the KP genius twitter account was written by a mate of Broad's who was openly engaging with the account and was giving KP a hard time. I can understand his reaction. He must have also been stitched up the South Africans who then released the messages. Where my sympathy runs out is the youtube video afterwards and the constant retiring / not retiring for ODI's. I just don't think he helps himself although the ECB probably need to look back at how they handled it as well.

With regards to Flower, he has been a resounding success but the way he went about the whole business was quite clearly wrong. Pieterson, like Flintoff before him are just not Captain material.

I agree with you about him not being captaincy material for sure but that was never for him to judge, no one held a gun to the ECB's head. The ECB have got their handling of Pietersen continuously wrong & as I've said on this thread before I would have told them where to go a long time ago if I was KP. He could be earning ridiculous money if he turned into a gun for hire 20/20 player & I'm guessing the reason he doesn't is that he loves playing for England.

I actually see a number of paralells between Pietersen & everyone's favourite Scottish tennins playing whipping boy, Andy Murray. Both serious people, determined to be the best at what they do, seen as aloof and lacking in humour.

 

[spring hall convert]

KP is not available for 20/20 finals day but will be fit for the Oval, according to Andy Flower.

"Pietersen won't be available for Finals Day. He will be rested because of a couple of the niggles he has. I have spoken with [Surrey's interim coach] Alec Stewart about that. It would have been nice to have made him available but injuries have meant that he can't be. We're just resting his knee and calf. He has played four Test matches now and this is an opportunity to rest. We try to be as fair to the counties as possible and you might have noticed over the last couple of years that we do try and get them back with their counties where we can. It possibly happens more often than it used to six or seven years go. But in this instance we can't because of injury. He'll be fine for The Oval. Chris Tremlett will be available for Surrey."

Sounds to me like Anderson may get a rest though

"It would have been almost impossible to sustain the standards and energy levels he showed in those first two Tests. But we got two ahead after two Tests and he had been a major contributor to those two wins. He will be fine. We have a little window now and we don't have to rush any decisions on selection for the fifth Test."

http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013/content/story/662195.html

 

[spring hall convert]

Ian Botham - supposedly a sexist dinosaur

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/off-the...ews/botham-accused-of-being-sexist_98391.html

It's hardly Gray, Keys or Inverdale is it? Mildly stereotyped, good natured joshing. I'm no real fan of Beefy the commentator but if that's massively sexist then Boycott should never be on air again.