Tommy Tradlles
New member
Well I'm going. it will be much more exciting than some of the football this past season!
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- Thread starter Moshe Gariani
- Start date
Well I'm going. it will be much more exciting than some of the football this past season!
I would raise serious questions as to if the club should be allowing events from organisations such as Jehovah's Witnesses to take place.
On the one hand, the Witnesses may appear to be an essentially harmless group. It is possible to view their religious outlook as unusual, a bit weird yet not be offended by it and have a live and let live approach over what someone else may choose to believe. You may know some Jehovah's Witnesses and like them on personal level. You may consider the fact that an organisation is prepared to pay a decent sum of money to come and use the stadium facilities to be a good thing, bringing valuable revenue into the club, perhaps even a financial necessity to help ensure the economic viability of the club. In some ways I would not argue with you.
The fact is, however, that Jehovah's Witnesses have several fundamental issues that put them at odds with what most people would accept as modern day values of diversity, freedom of choice and inclusiveness.
The most critical point, relevant to the club, in my opinion, is their view of homosexuality.
Jehovah's Witnesses would say they are not homophobic. They would claim that they hate the "sin" and not the "sinner". The simple fact is, however, that no gay person can realistically become or remain a Jehovah's Witness. If a gay person wished to become a Witness then they would have to completely finish any relationships they may have. Any kind of civil partnership or marriage would have to be broken up. There would be zero tolerance of any kind of physical relationships, casual or permanent. The person would be forced to be celibate. They would also not be permitted to have any openly positive attitudes about homosexuality. Witnesses are regularly reminded to "hate what Jehovah hates", therefore a homosexual has to hate their state - hate themselves - to remain approved by God.
It can be argued, from a Witness perspective, that homosexuality is just another "sin" that God hates like adultery, any sexual relationship outside of heterosexual marriage, murder or even gluttony. It can be claimed it holds no special place. This could be true if homosexuality was a choice, a lifestyle to be adopted or given up on a whim. The reality is that this is not the case. It is extremely unlikely that a gay individual not brought up from childhood as a Jehovah's Witness would join the religion but there are those who are "born into" the religion that have a torrid time.
For these ones there are some stark choices to be made. They can simply deny their sexuality. They may spend their whole lives single, concentrating on religious activities and either consciously suppress their feelings or enter some permanent state of denial. They may try a foster heterosexual relationships, perhaps even getting married to a person of opposite sex and raising a family.
There are those that live a complete double life, choosing to hide their sexuality. These ones tread a very fine line. If they were ever to be discovered they would face expulsion from the organisation since any sexual relationship would not be tolerated. They can never have a long term relationship. They have to face the mental stress of hiding one of the most important part of their lives and coping with the continual organisation intolerance of homosexuality and anti-gay comments from those within the religion.
The final choice is to embrace their sexuality and leave. If one is not baptised as a Witness then strictly speaking they can't be thrown out or shunned but their would be very, very few Witnesses who would have a close friend who had been a Witness (or brought up as one) and then left. If the person was a baptised Witness then that one would be "disfellowshipped" and face shunning from friends and family alike.
Whilst a gay person would be welcome to attend a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses there is simply no way that one would be welcome long term without having to completely change their lifestyle.
Whilst most Witnesses would say they are not homophobic, the cultural anti-gay sentiment is undeniable. It is not uncommon for people to privately express all levels of homophobic feelings. Whilst some might be considered fairly innocuous, sometimes the vitriol is extensive and not challenged. Imagine being a young person, struggling to make sense of feelings and hearing some of this. Could there be any assumption of being able to express those feelings to trusted family and friends without ending their world?
For an idea of some of the crazy rhetoric that Jehovah's Witnesses will publicly spout, check this link out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCC...70d4&annotation_id=annotation_272432589#t=14s
This is one of the leaders ("Governing Body") of the Jehovah's Witnesses saying that Witnesses should not wear tight trousers as they are designed by homosexuals - "The homosexuals that are designing these clothes, they like you in tight pants."
This speech was at a special event for Witnesses in the US and it is entirely possible that similar rhetoric could be expressed at the event next week.
Of course, the club is not responsible for this and no acceptance of whatever organisational values the Witnesses have is implied by the club renting the stadium to them. However, the club represents the best of the values of diversity and inclusiveness. It is also part of the community in a town renowned for it's homosexual community. I seriously doubt that the club would rent facilities to any organisation with openly vitriolic views on homosexuality so it's actually a case of drawing a line. If an organisation is known to completely reject homosexuality then it's basically a value judgement of a level of acceptable homophobia.
I am raising this point as someone brought up as a Jehovah's Witness and baptised as one in my late teens. I am not gay and never have had any feelings that I might be. I am married and have a family. What I have done however, is come to the realisation that everything I was brought up to believe is wrong. Over the past few years I completely lost my faith and am now essentially an atheist. I am also a BHAFC fan and attend most home games.
The past couple of years has seen me realise that the Witnesses have it wrong on so many levels. Just a few things:
The crazy thing however is that I have to post this anonymously. I am still nominally "in" as a Witness. I cannot express my true feelings openly as I would be considered an "apostate" and would be "disfellowshipped". My wife is a Witness and essentially believes most of the junk this religion has served up. I am trying to get her and my family out but it is very hard to do so without breaking our entire world apart.
If I was to simply come clean, just like a homosexual, I would be thrown out. If I formally leave then it's treated exactly the same - complete and total shunning. If I could simply turn round and say "I don't believe this anymore" without consequence then I would but if I did it would end my world.
NONE of my Witness friends would talk to me. People I have known for decades would ignore me in the street, in the supermarket, at the pub. People I have gone on holiday with would not allow their kids to see my kids if I was in my own house. My extended family who are Witnesses would not speak to me. I would not be able to go to the weddings of friends and family if the event was a Witness one. If I attended a convention such as the one next week - not ONE person in a crowd of 1000s would speak to me other than an attendant to direct me to a seat. The absolute best I could hope for would be a nodded acknowledgement. Most would simply lower their gaze, avert their eyes and ignore me.
All of this for simply saying, without malice, I simply don't want to do this any more.
The only way out of this organisation is to drift away over time. If you slowly stop your activity and never get "disfellowshipped" then you can perhaps avoid some of the most serious shunning but since Witnesses are taught only to have close association with other "strong" ones then the effects with friends can be the same. You might not be completely shunned but those friendships will dry up.
This is from an organisation where Christian love for all is meant to be the bedrock of everything they do. Hypocrites.
Jehovah's Witnesses are currently reinventing themselves as a modern, progressive and vibrant religion. You'd think that the relaunch of their website in 2012 was when the internet was invented according to the hype they give it.
Don't be fooled. They are not so modern and vibrant. The only thing that has progressed are the changes to failed prophecies. They still maintain all the hubris and prejudices of any old school "Christian" faith. The website is a master stroke of spin.
Next week will see three days of indoctrination. Numerous, well produced, slick videos will be used to indoctrinate the attendees. They will come out believing that the end of the world is ever closer, that they need to stick closer and closer to the Organisation, that they are the only true religion in the world.
Having been on the inside of this fakery for decades and unable to simply leave without destroying my world leaves me nothing but contempt for this organisation. It hides some of the worst of biblical prejudice, social manipulation and group control techniques in plain sight. I, for one, don't think that our club needs the revenue from a group that would be happy to see a large majority of the community in the town where it is located wiped aside in one fell sweep by a God directed purge.
Go along by all means next week. Ask anyone with one of the silly badges what will happen to any gay person when God brings Armageddon. Ask them what a married gay person would have to do if they wanted to be a Witness. Ask them how there can be a narrow path to their new world without the indiscriminate destruction of billions of innocent men, women and children come Armageddon. Ask them why someone would have to create an anonymous account, take precautions like private browsing and VPN proxy to create a post simply so they don't get thrown out of their organisation and face complete shunning.
Watch them cough and splutter.
Then ask yourself why you might be happy for this organisation to be at your club.
On the one hand, the Witnesses may appear to be an essentially harmless group. It is possible to view their religious outlook as unusual, a bit weird yet not be offended by it and have a live and let live approach over what someone else may choose to believe. You may know some Jehovah's Witnesses and like them on personal level. You may consider the fact that an organisation is prepared to pay a decent sum of money to come and use the stadium facilities to be a good thing, bringing valuable revenue into the club, perhaps even a financial necessity to help ensure the economic viability of the club. In some ways I would not argue with you.
The fact is, however, that Jehovah's Witnesses have several fundamental issues that put them at odds with what most people would accept as modern day values of diversity, freedom of choice and inclusiveness.
The most critical point, relevant to the club, in my opinion, is their view of homosexuality.
Jehovah's Witnesses would say they are not homophobic. They would claim that they hate the "sin" and not the "sinner". The simple fact is, however, that no gay person can realistically become or remain a Jehovah's Witness. If a gay person wished to become a Witness then they would have to completely finish any relationships they may have. Any kind of civil partnership or marriage would have to be broken up. There would be zero tolerance of any kind of physical relationships, casual or permanent. The person would be forced to be celibate. They would also not be permitted to have any openly positive attitudes about homosexuality. Witnesses are regularly reminded to "hate what Jehovah hates", therefore a homosexual has to hate their state - hate themselves - to remain approved by God.
It can be argued, from a Witness perspective, that homosexuality is just another "sin" that God hates like adultery, any sexual relationship outside of heterosexual marriage, murder or even gluttony. It can be claimed it holds no special place. This could be true if homosexuality was a choice, a lifestyle to be adopted or given up on a whim. The reality is that this is not the case. It is extremely unlikely that a gay individual not brought up from childhood as a Jehovah's Witness would join the religion but there are those who are "born into" the religion that have a torrid time.
For these ones there are some stark choices to be made. They can simply deny their sexuality. They may spend their whole lives single, concentrating on religious activities and either consciously suppress their feelings or enter some permanent state of denial. They may try a foster heterosexual relationships, perhaps even getting married to a person of opposite sex and raising a family.
There are those that live a complete double life, choosing to hide their sexuality. These ones tread a very fine line. If they were ever to be discovered they would face expulsion from the organisation since any sexual relationship would not be tolerated. They can never have a long term relationship. They have to face the mental stress of hiding one of the most important part of their lives and coping with the continual organisation intolerance of homosexuality and anti-gay comments from those within the religion.
The final choice is to embrace their sexuality and leave. If one is not baptised as a Witness then strictly speaking they can't be thrown out or shunned but their would be very, very few Witnesses who would have a close friend who had been a Witness (or brought up as one) and then left. If the person was a baptised Witness then that one would be "disfellowshipped" and face shunning from friends and family alike.
Whilst a gay person would be welcome to attend a meeting of Jehovah's Witnesses there is simply no way that one would be welcome long term without having to completely change their lifestyle.
Whilst most Witnesses would say they are not homophobic, the cultural anti-gay sentiment is undeniable. It is not uncommon for people to privately express all levels of homophobic feelings. Whilst some might be considered fairly innocuous, sometimes the vitriol is extensive and not challenged. Imagine being a young person, struggling to make sense of feelings and hearing some of this. Could there be any assumption of being able to express those feelings to trusted family and friends without ending their world?
For an idea of some of the crazy rhetoric that Jehovah's Witnesses will publicly spout, check this link out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCC...70d4&annotation_id=annotation_272432589#t=14s
This is one of the leaders ("Governing Body") of the Jehovah's Witnesses saying that Witnesses should not wear tight trousers as they are designed by homosexuals - "The homosexuals that are designing these clothes, they like you in tight pants."
This speech was at a special event for Witnesses in the US and it is entirely possible that similar rhetoric could be expressed at the event next week.
Of course, the club is not responsible for this and no acceptance of whatever organisational values the Witnesses have is implied by the club renting the stadium to them. However, the club represents the best of the values of diversity and inclusiveness. It is also part of the community in a town renowned for it's homosexual community. I seriously doubt that the club would rent facilities to any organisation with openly vitriolic views on homosexuality so it's actually a case of drawing a line. If an organisation is known to completely reject homosexuality then it's basically a value judgement of a level of acceptable homophobia.
I am raising this point as someone brought up as a Jehovah's Witness and baptised as one in my late teens. I am not gay and never have had any feelings that I might be. I am married and have a family. What I have done however, is come to the realisation that everything I was brought up to believe is wrong. Over the past few years I completely lost my faith and am now essentially an atheist. I am also a BHAFC fan and attend most home games.
The past couple of years has seen me realise that the Witnesses have it wrong on so many levels. Just a few things:
- acceptance of myths like Adam and Eve and the Flood
- the rejection of higher education as it stops young people from being preachers
- the movement to tie young people in through encouragement to be baptised at ever younger ages
- hypocrisy over blood. They refuse to donate on the basis blood should be poured out when taken from the body yet are happy to accept numerous fractions processed from blood donated by others
- forcing stark choices of personal contact with those "disfellowshipped" from the organisation on family and friends. Basically it's shun or face the same punishment.
- failed predications time and time again
- revisionist view of their own history
- grabbing money and assets from congregations to fund expansion whilst sitting on assets worth hundreds of millions
- non-transparent child abuse prevention policies that clearly can be exploited by abusers and do not represent best practice when compared to many other organisations
The crazy thing however is that I have to post this anonymously. I am still nominally "in" as a Witness. I cannot express my true feelings openly as I would be considered an "apostate" and would be "disfellowshipped". My wife is a Witness and essentially believes most of the junk this religion has served up. I am trying to get her and my family out but it is very hard to do so without breaking our entire world apart.
If I was to simply come clean, just like a homosexual, I would be thrown out. If I formally leave then it's treated exactly the same - complete and total shunning. If I could simply turn round and say "I don't believe this anymore" without consequence then I would but if I did it would end my world.
NONE of my Witness friends would talk to me. People I have known for decades would ignore me in the street, in the supermarket, at the pub. People I have gone on holiday with would not allow their kids to see my kids if I was in my own house. My extended family who are Witnesses would not speak to me. I would not be able to go to the weddings of friends and family if the event was a Witness one. If I attended a convention such as the one next week - not ONE person in a crowd of 1000s would speak to me other than an attendant to direct me to a seat. The absolute best I could hope for would be a nodded acknowledgement. Most would simply lower their gaze, avert their eyes and ignore me.
All of this for simply saying, without malice, I simply don't want to do this any more.
The only way out of this organisation is to drift away over time. If you slowly stop your activity and never get "disfellowshipped" then you can perhaps avoid some of the most serious shunning but since Witnesses are taught only to have close association with other "strong" ones then the effects with friends can be the same. You might not be completely shunned but those friendships will dry up.
This is from an organisation where Christian love for all is meant to be the bedrock of everything they do. Hypocrites.
Jehovah's Witnesses are currently reinventing themselves as a modern, progressive and vibrant religion. You'd think that the relaunch of their website in 2012 was when the internet was invented according to the hype they give it.
Don't be fooled. They are not so modern and vibrant. The only thing that has progressed are the changes to failed prophecies. They still maintain all the hubris and prejudices of any old school "Christian" faith. The website is a master stroke of spin.
Next week will see three days of indoctrination. Numerous, well produced, slick videos will be used to indoctrinate the attendees. They will come out believing that the end of the world is ever closer, that they need to stick closer and closer to the Organisation, that they are the only true religion in the world.
Having been on the inside of this fakery for decades and unable to simply leave without destroying my world leaves me nothing but contempt for this organisation. It hides some of the worst of biblical prejudice, social manipulation and group control techniques in plain sight. I, for one, don't think that our club needs the revenue from a group that would be happy to see a large majority of the community in the town where it is located wiped aside in one fell sweep by a God directed purge.
Go along by all means next week. Ask anyone with one of the silly badges what will happen to any gay person when God brings Armageddon. Ask them what a married gay person would have to do if they wanted to be a Witness. Ask them how there can be a narrow path to their new world without the indiscriminate destruction of billions of innocent men, women and children come Armageddon. Ask them why someone would have to create an anonymous account, take precautions like private browsing and VPN proxy to create a post simply so they don't get thrown out of their organisation and face complete shunning.
Watch them cough and splutter.
Then ask yourself why you might be happy for this organisation to be at your club.
Hampster Gull
Well-known member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,465
[MENTION=33328]k99[/MENTION], learn to be succinct, its a good life skill. Just trying to help like
Fair comment but I think the background is important.
If you want it succinct then how about this.
Why would anyone want the club to host an organisation that is openly anti-gay (you could say homophobic), does not recognise any way of helping young people who may be struggling to reconcile their feelings with Biblical interpretation and would completely shun a member just for publicly asking the question?
Hampster Gull
Well-known member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,465
Barham's tash
Well-known member
[MENTION=33328]k99[/MENTION] what a barnstorming debut post. Mastermind specialist subject?!
Yup - bit of a tome but I don't think many really have any idea about the deeply seated issues with some of the beliefs that Jehovah's Witnesses have.
In all honesty, as a group, they are an irrelevance to most people but that is exactly why searching questions should be asked.
The Merry Prankster
Pactum serva
k99, I really feel for you. it sounds an awful situation to be in and you explained it very well (those without the attention span to read it should make the effort).
No the club shouldn't be hiring to them.
As to your situation, you only get one life. I made a major lifestyle change (of a much different nature) 16 years ago. As part of the process I lost a lot of friends, my marriage (and as a result of that the relationship with my sister) and my business. I've built a new and infinitely better life for myself. If it's wrong, it's wrong and you'll never find happiness whilst you're still involved IMHO.
No the club shouldn't be hiring to them.
As to your situation, you only get one life. I made a major lifestyle change (of a much different nature) 16 years ago. As part of the process I lost a lot of friends, my marriage (and as a result of that the relationship with my sister) and my business. I've built a new and infinitely better life for myself. If it's wrong, it's wrong and you'll never find happiness whilst you're still involved IMHO.
[MENTION=33328]k99[/MENTION], really sorry you find yourself in such a dreadful situation, but thanks for taking the trouble to post such an insightful account of your situation. I agree with The Merry Prankster though - really sounds like you need to get out, whatever the consequences. If your 'friends' would shun you to that degree, then they aren't really friends at all, just religious associates aren't they ? You've very eloquently made your feelings and beliefs clear - and you'll surely regret it forever if you continue with the charade.
As for the club renting out the facilities, I don't much care. It's just revenue and not accepting any particular booking means some fairly controversial lines would need to be drawn. Catholics ? CofE ? Devil Worshippers ? All have their followers and enemies.
As for the club renting out the facilities, I don't much care. It's just revenue and not accepting any particular booking means some fairly controversial lines would need to be drawn. Catholics ? CofE ? Devil Worshippers ? All have their followers and enemies.
jonny.rainbow
Well-known member
- Oct 29, 2005
- 6,848
Postman Pat
Well-known member
LamieRobertson
Not awoke
Quite looking forward to the one that is scheduled in 4 weeks yesterday evening
Not a cut and paste. It's a tome but unless you have been inside a group like this then it is really hard to understand the impact that it has.
As per another post I made they are an irrelevance to most but if someone was shouting things at a game that they say during public events at grounds like the Amex then that person would be ejected and banned.
Who cares if Witnesses want to spend three days listening to some wacky interpretation of the Bible? No one. Money in the bank.
Who cares if a club at the heart of an overall inclusive and diverse community does not mind hosting an event where anti-gay rhetoric is presented? I do, not least just to ask the question about if a line should be drawn or if it's simply free speech and it does not really matter.
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OK, next time I'll serialise it and can it after one episode
But in answer to your question the difference with the Catholic Church is that whilst they have their fair share of puritanical nutjobs if you want to be a aligned with a segment of the church that supports gay rights or the rights of women or have a debate about a subject like the ordination of women priests then you can.
If you are in a group like the Jehovah's Witnesses then you cannot. If anyone was to start a group calling for women to be allowed to hold pastoral office then that person would be thrown out as an "apostate" and shunned. If anyone started a support group to help young people who were struggling with their sexual identity then that person would be thrown out as an "apostate" and shunned.
Simply being vocal in your disagreement with any point the Watchtower (WT) hierarchy pump out risks being thrown out as an "apostate" and shunned.
The WT PR machine spins subjects like these and makes it all sound like no one is persecuted or forced into a Hobson's choice yet the reality is very much different.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,792
I'm sorry for your situation and this is not an attempt to belittle it, but it seems to me that you need to find a religious organisation more in line with your beliefs. Certainly, from what you have said, I can understand why you would not want to continue further with JH and wish you every success in finding an alternative. I find a whole number of what I consider 'extremist' religious groups to be abhorrent and will tell then whenever they try 'help' me or 'offer guidance'.
If you believe that what they are doing is illegal, report them and i'm sure the authorities can follow it up. However, if it's a moral issue I do not see what this has to do with BHA
If you believe that what they are doing is illegal, report them and i'm sure the authorities can follow it up. However, if it's a moral issue I do not see what this has to do with BHA
I'm sorry for your situation and this is not an attempt to belittle it, but it seems to me that you need to find a religious organisation more in line with your beliefs. Certainly, from what you have said, I can understand why you would not want to continue further with JH and wish you every success in finding an alternative. I find a whole number of what I consider 'extremist' religious groups to be abhorrent and will tell then whenever they try 'help' me or 'offer guidance'.
If you believe that what they are doing is illegal, report them and i'm sure the authorities can follow it up. However, if it's a moral issue I do not see what this has to do with BHA
Thanks for the thoughts. I actually don't need another religion. My personal beliefs now are based on secular, humanist foundations and I have rejected any belief in a God of the Bible. What I need is the freedom to be able to quietly go on my own way without my friends and extended family being forced to cut off association with me.
Anyway the point of the post was really about what you have said. Nothing they are saying is illegal. People are free to hold any belief on morals within reasonable bounds. If you wanted to lock up every person who thought God is against homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses would be just one of a very long list.
Since it is just their view of morality then perhaps you are right that it has nothing to do with the club but where should that line be drawn? But when should the club take notice? When does a statement of morals become truly homophobic? Does the club have zero responsibility to be aware of the reality about a group's position on diversity, inclusiveness and equal opportunity? Does the banner of religion absolve the club of any concerns?
Lord Bracknell
On fire
My dear old mum always used to enjoy telling the Jehovah's Witnesses who knocked on her door: "I'll say a special prayer to Saint Theresa for you".
[MENTION=33328]k99[/MENTION] could give Paul Barber a run for his money. Why use a few words when a thousand will do?