[Politics] Extinction Rebellion protester grounds plane at London City...

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highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,555
Last edited:




Tom Hark Preston Park

Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
72,391
Mo Gosfield said:
Middle class suburbia out in force. Costas empty everywhere.
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This. Wouldn't happen in China/India/US/Russia where it might actually matter. Pure middle class virtue signalling.

And speaking of which...

a53.png
 




midnight_rendezvous

midnight_rendezvous

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
3,743
The Black Country
Tom Hark said:
This. Wouldn't happen in China/India/US/Russia where it might actually matter. Pure middle class virtue signalling.

And speaking of which...

View attachment 116074
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It’s almost like climate change effects everyone and that a western education has informed a girl to want to make change...
 


highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,555
Machiavelli said:
Especially those ones near the front. Never done a day's work in their lives.
PS your other post on this page is the best one in this thread
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Thank you!

Normally I don't bother so much. But this week, in an attempt to distract myself from some work I really should be doing, I decided to have a go at trying to defend the XR on here.

I wish XR was all less middle class (which it is, far more than it is 'crusty'). I wish, instead of Greta Thunberg, the world's attention had been caught by one of the (many) brilliant young activists from ouside Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/05/greta-thunberg-developing-world-activists

But none of that makes it any less important.
My favorite image from the climate strikes a few weeks ago was this one - the first to appear on the day:

pacific strikes 2.jpg
 




Pavilionaire

Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
31,277
I support Extinction Rebellion but I recognise people are being inconvenienced. However, those people need to turn their anger and frustration on the politicians who continue to kick the can down the road.

What is Boris Johnson's position on all of this? His team know it looks bad if he is photographed holding a single-use plastic coffee cup, he must been seen to be green and yet he labelled ER as "unco-operative crusties...importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters". Ironic that he's happy to stereotype yet come the General Election it'll be 'Boris Johnson, Man of the People' not silver-spoon posh boy Boris from Eton / Oxford / Bullingdon Club.

What's disappointing is that - post-Blue Planet - Britain is beginning to wake up to the crisis just as we're about to "go it alone" in the world post-Brexit. It is counter-intuitive, muddled thinking - entirely in keeping with our leader.
 










H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,652
highflyer said:
Can't speak for the OP, but I have definitely cut down my flying a lot in the last 10 years. I still do fly occasionally. I love it. And wish it was something we more easily 'decarbonize' but (depite vague talk of algae biofuels and such like from the industry) it isn't going to happen any time soon. A 17% improvement in efficiency I am afraid isn't enough, when all the projections (and business plans from airines) are for 20% + increase in flights (haven't checked that recently...maybe I am wrong and they are planning to contract, but I doubt it)

It's no use just expecting individuals to stop voluntarily though. It won't happen, beyond a few hard core types. Not least because of the whole free rider problem - why should I miss out when others are not? But also because ALL the evidence is that 'nudging' won't get us anywhere near what is needed. And any calls to cut back are weighed against a very lucrative aviation industry marketing flying like crazy - and they wouldn't be spending that money if it didn't work.

So we need some form of intervention in the market. But that's hard because you really don't want to just make flying into a luxury for rich people.

So far my personal policy front runner is this, from the (excellent) MP Alex Sobel: https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...issions-carbon-tax-labour-party-a9092731.html

Once you take into account that 70% of fights are taken by 15% of (the richest) people then it is easier to contemplate change (unless you are one of the 15% I guess).
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What does this mention of 15% actually mean? Are you talking about 15% of the richest in the richest countries or globally, If the latter is the case, then, as I suspect, the figure of those British citizens flying will be much higher? Given that the article talks about low-cost flying, and mass use of package holidays, it seems ironic that the idea of flying only being for the rich should be mentioned.
 








highflyer

highflyer

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2016
2,555
Hastings gull said:
What does this mention of 15% actually mean? Are you talking about 15% of the richest in the richest countries or globally, If the latter is the case, then, as I suspect, the figure of those British citizens flying will be much higher? Given that the article talks about low-cost flying, and mass use of package holidays, it seems ironic that the idea of flying only being for the rich should be mentioned.
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15% in the UK, and seems to be correct https://fullfact.org/economy/do-15-people-take-70-flights/
Interesting that, of those asked in the survey, 52% had not flown at all in the previous year.

The point of the article is that, if you made it cheaper to fly only once a year but then increasingly expensive to fly more often than that, it would have little impact on lower income families (and could make it cheaper to go on just one foreign holiday/year). The cost would fall largely on those that fly very regularly and on business travel - which makes it (overall) a progressive tax in practice.

Whereas if you just stick a massive increase on air passenger duty then it would have the effect of making flying 'just for the rich'.

I am sure it has flaws, but it's the best idea I've seen so far.
 


midnight_rendezvous

midnight_rendezvous

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
3,743
The Black Country
Hastings gull said:
Talk about meaningless mumbo jumbo. If this is spot on, then you must be easily satisfied.
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Looking at some of the reactions to XR on this thread, goes to show it’s not meaningless mumbo jumbo. Without trawling though all the comments, so far XR have been called crusties, hippies, unemployed, middle class, druggies and hypocrites (to name but a few). Some people on this thread have said they can’t possibly protest climate change because they have plastic tents, they have generators, because they have phones... The lengths some people are going to in order to call them hypocrites or to attack the people protesting whilst ignoring what they’re actually protesting about, is frankly astounding.
 




H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,652
Pavilionaire said:
I support Extinction Rebellion but I recognise people are being inconvenienced. However, those people need to turn their anger and frustration on the politicians who continue to kick the can down the road.

What is Boris Johnson's position on all of this? His team know it looks bad if he is photographed holding a single-use plastic coffee cup, he must been seen to be green and yet he labelled ER as "unco-operative crusties...importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters". Ironic that he's happy to stereotype yet come the General Election it'll be 'Boris Johnson, Man of the People' not silver-spoon posh boy Boris from Eton / Oxford / Bullingdon Club.

What's disappointing is that - post-Blue Planet - Britain is beginning to wake up to the crisis just as we're about to "go it alone" in the world post-Brexit. It is counter-intuitive, muddled thinking - entirely in keeping with our leader.
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But so are you! If the people will not turn their anger on politicians now, then it is extremely unlikely that they will blame politicians for the antics of the crusties. Boris calls them that because he knows that most folk would come up with similar descriptions of them, even those same folk would share the crusties' concern over climate change. Thinking of the campaign for falmer -it was vocal, always in the public eye, but always dignified and restrained; would permission have been granted earlier for Falmer, had hundreds of fans blockaded Brighton and prevented thousands of folk from going about their daily business? If you wish your campaign to prevail, then you must carry the majority with you, and that is the big error the crusties are making.
 


H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,652
highflyer said:
15% in the UK, and seems to be correct https://fullfact.org/economy/do-15-people-take-70-flights/
Interesting that, of those asked in the survey, 52% had not flown at all in the previous year.

The point of the article is that, if you made it cheaper to fly only once a year but then increasingly expensive to fly more often than that, it would have little impact on lower income families (and could make it cheaper to go on just one foreign holiday/year). The cost would fall largely on those that fly very regularly and on business travel - which makes it (overall) a progressive tax in practice.

Whereas if you just stick a massive increase on air passenger duty then it would have the effect of making flying 'just for the rich'.

I am sure it has flaws, but it's the best idea I've seen so far.
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Yes, thanks.
 


H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,652
midnight_rendezvous said:
Looking at some of the reactions to XR on this thread, goes to show it’s not meaningless mumbo jumbo. Without trawling though all the comments, so far XR have been called crusties, hippies, unemployed, middle class, druggies and hypocrites (to name but a few). Some people on this thread have said they can’t possibly protest climate change because they have plastic tents, they have generators, because they have phones... The lengths some people are going to in order to call them hypocrites or to attack the people protesting whilst ignoring what they’re actually protesting about, is frankly astounding.
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No, that is your obsession about climate change talking. I have not read anyone say that they cannot protest because they have this and that. What galls folk, quite understandably, is that they are being lectured to, by folk all too willing to disrupt, and with the strong suspicion that those shouting the loudest are not necessarily the best exponents of what they preach. Everyone on this thread, whether they wear leather shoes or not, surely understands what they are protesting about, but finds their methods crude and counter-productive. I have made pleas on NSC in the past for car-free sundays ( with a very mixed response!) throughout the world to kick-start matters, but I think XR are rabble, who are doing their utmost, albeit unwittingly, to turn folk off -even folk who support their aims.
 


midnight_rendezvous

midnight_rendezvous

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
3,743
The Black Country
Hastings gull said:
No, that is your obsession about climate change talking. I have not read anyone say that they cannot protest because they have this and that. What galls folk, quite understandably, is that they are being lectured to, by folk all too willing to disrupt, and with the strong suspicion that those shouting the loudest are not necessarily the best exponents of what they preach. Everyone on this thread, whether they wear leather shoes or not, surely understands what they are protesting about, but finds their methods crude and counter-productive. I have made pleas on NSC in the past for car-free sundays ( with a very mixed response!) throughout the world to kick-start matters, but I think XR are rabble, who are doing their utmost, albeit unwittingly, to turn folk off -even folk who support their aims.
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Pointing out what other posters have said in an attempt to undermine XR protestors is my obsession with climate change? ??? Sounds legit...

Best response I can give to your post is to point you to post 2 of the thread in which Jonathan Pie says it all much better than I can.
 




H

Hastings gull

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2013
4,652
midnight_rendezvous said:
Pointing out what other posters have said in an attempt to undermine XR protestors is my obsession with climate change? ??? Sounds legit...

Best response I can give to your post is to point you to post 2 of the thread in which Jonathan Pie says it all much better than I can.
Click to expand...

I can't help feeling that XR protestors rather undermine themselves! They don't need help from NSC posters.
 


midnight_rendezvous

midnight_rendezvous

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2012
3,743
The Black Country


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