EU to charge Britain more money due to success of economy....

[Chicken Runner61]

Cameron will pay up - he's had the bill in his back pocket fro the best part of the week and hasn't dared showed us it till now.

The interest on it is something like £42M a month + a £12 late payment fee and he can't get out of it. I'm still not voting Ukip though, I'm not voting for a load of smelly old people that piss their pants and want to ban noisy music.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Cameron will pay up - he's had the bill in his back pocket fro the best part of the week and hasn't dared showed us it till now.

The interest on it is something like £42M a month + a £12 late payment fee and he can't get out of it. I'm still not voting Ukip though, I'm not voting for a load of smelly old people that piss their pants and want to ban noisy music.

well,that rules you out of voting for anyone then ..

 

[pb21]

Out of interest how would life be tangibly better if the UK wasn't part of the EU, and for those aspects which would be tangibly better what evidence, actual evidence not just posturing, do you have to support it?

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Not at all odd. Like many things in life there a pros and cons and Greece feels that, all things considered, overall it's better to be in than out. It is very simplistic to just look at the net contribution and judge overall value.

That's true, to a certain extent.

I talk to Greeks in Athens and Crete pretty much every day, and they know that overall they are better off in that out. That goes for the euro too.

However announcements such as today will just encourage those on the right in Greece who do want out of the EU.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Out of interest how would life be tangibly better if the UK wasn't part of the EU, and for those aspects which would be tangibly better what evidence, actual evidence not just posturing, do you have to support it?

I doubt anyone will try to answer your question as judging by the way it written anyone who has any answer will be judged as a a Little Englander....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's true, to a certain extent.

I talk to Greeks in Athens and Crete pretty much every day, and they know that overall they are better off in that out. That goes for the euro too.

However announcements such as today will just encourage those on the right in Greece who do want out of the EU.

I'm sure it will encourage anti-EU people all over the continent but I have faith that the majority of voters in each member state will see the overall benefit of the EU. And I hope the positive side/case gets aired if a referendum happens in any member state. The anti-EU movement is incredibly noisy but I still feel they are in the minority and the benefits of the EU will ultimately win out.

 

[pb21]

I doubt anyone will try to answer your question as judging by the way it written anyone who has any answer will be judged as a a Little Englander....

No, I don't know either way. I'm generally a skeptic and look for actual evidence before coming to conclusions, I'm not sure what evidence exists that supports the notion the UK would be better outside the EU?

 

[Chicken Runner61]

well,that rules you out of voting for anyone then ..

Exactly right - Sad to say I hate all of them, there isn't one party who is going to bring anything worthwhile to the country. The whole lot wants bringing down and starting again.
All these charlantans and snake oil sellers do is tinker about with failed policies and failed economics, nothings going to change. Farage is about as much an alternative to Cameron as Milliband is, if we leave the EU or if we stay the the EU it won't make a blind bit of difference the rich will get richer and we will be turned into a mass of people equal in poverty, status and the drudgery of liberalised democracy, free to do anything we want but chained to the yoke of debt burdens and monthly outgoings.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Out of interest how would life be tangibly better if the UK wasn't part of the EU, and for those aspects which would be tangibly better what evidence, actual evidence not just posturing, do you have to support it?

Let's take for example that we could fund 20 ( yes TWENTY ) new hospitals in our major cities a year from the net contribution we give the EU every year.

Lots of love, a little Englander !

 

[jcdenton08]

I'm possibly wrong, but I think he may want a date?

The point I was making (by the way, whoosh), is that honest people are contradictions and have a number of different qualities which form their opinions on any given subject. Anybody who identifies themselves as a "conservative through and through" is naturally going to be anti a number of things, many of which they personally will feel differently about. Likewise anyone who is "left wing" argues against certain principals, liberals the same. No party of sense of political thinking is "right" or "wrong". This is something I'm trying to explain to you.

In identifying myself as a lover of art, the Albion and a gamer I'm making the point that I lived a varied and culturally diverse life. Yet I'm voting UKIP because I disagree with the management of the country.

You, however, are so staunchly pro-EU that it blinds you to the realities and - at least on NSC - is your raison d'être.

Like I said, it is possible to disagree with parts of your own overruling philosophy, when they are so blindingly unfair that they defy argument.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, I don't know either way. I'm generally a skeptic and look for actual evidence before coming to conclusions, I'm not sure what evidence exists that supports the notion the UK would be better outside the EU?

No one has ever made a decent case to me. I'm not convinced by any economic cases, far from it in fact. Self-determination crops up a lot but I believe strongly in this concept and feel the EU actually helps; a passport which allows you the pick of 28 countries and cultures is a lot more self-determining and free than having a country you might not want forced upon you.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The point I was making (by the way, whoosh), is that honest people are contradictions and have a number of different qualities which form their opinions on any given subject. Anybody who identifies themselves as a "conservative through and through" is naturally going to be anti a number of things, many of which they personally will feel differently about. Likewise anyone who is "left wing" argues against certain principals, liberals the same. No party of sense of political thinking is "right" or "wrong". This is something I'm trying to explain to you.

In identifying myself as a lover of art, the Albion and a gamer I'm making the point that I lived a varied and culturally diverse life. Yet I'm voting UKIP because I disagree with the management of the country.

You, however, are so staunchly pro-EU that it blinds you to the realities and - at least on NSC - is your raison d'être.

Like I said, it is possible to disagree with parts of your own overruling philosophy, when they are so blindingly unfair that they defy argument.

So your case boils down to you believing anyone with strong support for something is blind to reality? You seem to have some very preconceived ideas on politics and what a left winger can be.

 

[jcdenton08]

So your case boils down to you believing anyone with strong support for something is blind to reality? You seem to have some very preconceived ideas on politics and what a left winger can be.

Okay.

So let's say I'm a pro-guns lobbyist in the States. I believe in the right to bear arms, and nothing you say or do can change my mind about it.

Every day there is lethal gun crime, every few months a fatal mass shooting, but I staunchly believe that I am right and absolutely no argument you put forward can dissuade me of that.

I guess that means that everybody who gets shot is an unavoidable statistic, because the freedom to own a gun is more important than those people's lives.

Now tell me I'm wrong.

 

[beorhthelm]

No one has ever made a decent case to me. I'm not convinced by any economic cases, far from it in fact. Self-determination crops up a lot but I believe strongly in this concept and feel the EU actually helps; a passport which allows you the pick of 28 countries and cultures is a lot more self-determined and free than having a country you might not want forced upon you.

are you really confusing and comparing a nations self-determination with a persons free will and freedom to travel, or did you mis-type? if you did mean that, people have long had the option to change their citizenship, so this hardly justifies imposing a foreign culture and rule of law upon countries that dont understand or like it. and this is directly opposed to the freedom supposedly a benefit.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Okay.

So let's say I'm a pro-guns lobbyist in the States. I believe in the right to bear arms, and nothing you say or do can change my mind about it.

Every day there is lethal gun crime, every few months a fatal mass shooting, but I staunchly believe that I am right and absolutely no argument you put forward can dissuade me of that.

I guess that means that everybody who gets shot is an unavoidable statistic, because the freedom to own a gun is more important than those people's lives.

Now tell me I'm wrong.

You're now mixing two issues, personal opinion and bias. I don't agree with the right to bear arms but this does not imply that a pro-gunner has not considered his beliefs and/or is somehow blinded. To the contrary, their strong belief might actually be the result of a lot of careful and measured consideration?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

are you really confusing and comparing a nations self-determination with a persons free will and freedom to travel, or did you mis-type? if you did mean that, people have long had the option to change their citizenship, so this hardly justifies imposing a foreign culture and rule of law upon countries that dont understand or like it. and this is directly opposed to the freedom supposedly a benefit.

I'm not confusing anything, my take on self-determination is at the personal level and not at state level.

 

[jcdenton08]

You're now mixing two issues, personal opinion and bias. I don't agree with the right to bear arms but this does not imply that a pro-gunner has not considered his beliefs and is somehow blinded. To the contrary, their strong belief might actually be the result of a lot of careful and measured consideration?

Would your not believing in something constitute a fundamental representation of your general ethos? Because every single opinion you express is as though taken from a textbook of "how you should feel about XYZ subject, if you were a liberal". In real life, people's opinions do vary a little. You should be a party whip or something, seriously!

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I don't know why some of you think that the left wing is pro EU and immigration - Real socialist parties are against immigration because it lowers wages for workers and they see the EU being in favour of large corporate businesses that want a supply of cheap workers to make money from. You need to realise that the only difference between the parties we have is that some make their pitch and pander to the rich while they fill their pockets while the others pander to the poor while filling their pockets

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Would your not believing in something constitute a fundamental representation of your general ethos? Because every single opinion you express is as though taken from a textbook of "how you should feel about XYZ subject, if you were a liberal". In real life, people's opinions do vary a little. You should be a party whip or something, seriously!

Textbook? It's taken from The Guardian!

I joke. I don't agree with your assertion. I'm a left-winger but I view and form opinions on issues case-by-case. My position is from the left but it isn't a catch all philosophy for me; I have a number of views which might at first seem at odds with the classical idea of a lefty. One has to in the 21st century.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I don't know why some of you think that the left wing is pro EU and immigration - Real socialist parties are against immigration because it lowers wages for workers and they see the EU being in favour of large corporate businesses that want a supply of cheap workers to make money from. You need to realise that the only difference between the parties we have is that some make their pitch and pander to the rich while they fill their pockets while the others pander to the poor while filling their pockets

True. Tony Benn and Bob Crow were both very left and very anti-EU.