England fans great ambassadors....

[Turkey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: England fans great ambassadors....

Firstly, "a minority" - look at my post, that was exactly the word I used.

Secondly, I agree with you that helmets are at the low end of the scale of tasteless war references and, as such, many Germans will laugh it off, although some won't. The question it raises though is the "thin end of the wedge" one - does behaviour like this diffuse the war stuff as an issue as you seem to be implying, or does it create the kind of environment where after a few more lagers the pissheads feel emboldened to move on to the goosesteps and Nazi salutes. I don't know the answer to that question to be honest but it remains a concern for me.

On another tack, I disagree with the points that Gully makes implying that these issues of historical national rivalries are matters of racism, for example I would not say it is "racist" that most England fans want to see Germany defeated any more than most Scots want to see England defeated, it is banter and healthy rivalry when kept within the bounds of decent behaviour.

The issues that German Shepherd has sought to raise I don't think are about "racism", but are about taste, manners and respect. Old-fashioned concepts, perhaps, but I feel valid ones. It goes without saying that bad behaviour on this front can always (very wrongly) be justified by pointing to bad behaviour elsewhere.

Yes it does defuse the war stuff because English, Germans and every other nationality is having a laugh, together. Everyone is enjoying the others company and relations between nationalities is fantastic. It may not be needed but the Germans are laughing it off and thats it, end of, lets have a beer and bratwurst. Healthy behaviour is Brits, Germans and Argies all sharing a beer in Frankfurt town center today. The atmosphere, is superb and I think the majority of fans in Germany will go home with a great sense of fondness for the other nationalities they have encountered.

 

[Brovion]

Well I've waded through this and whilst I concede German Shepherd may have a point I feel he is being unrealistic and perhaps even ungrateful to the efforts put in by the FA and English police to eradicate hooliganism.

His first post begins something like "English fans, great ambassadors ....... not!" I then expected to read something about bars trashed, policemen hospitalised, locals terrorised, etc - indeed the usual 'English abroad' stuff. Instead he's moaning about plastic Spitfires! I would like to point out that only eight years ago English fans were trashing France (in the same way they'd trashed Italy in 1990). We were the scum of Europe, everybody despised and pitied us and it was easy to see why.

I'll think plastic spitfires and a few tasteless chants are a vast improvement, he should be praising us for the progress we've made since 1998.

 

[Lokki 7]

BUT the way the ordinary england fan behaves is appalling. fans wandering around in WW2 replica helmets, throwing plastic spitfires, songs about bomber harris, songs about the war in general and other anti-german and anti-turkish songs

I was thinking about this thread over the weekend (sad I know) and it continued to annoy me. Then, I remembered these quotes from a few months ago...

http://85.234.132.19/showthread.php...page=20&highlight=youd be krauts&pagenumber=4

taunts from us for england fans:

"you can stick ur fuppin teabags up your ar$e..."

"no towels, you never bring your towels...you never bring your towels.."

"if it wasn't for the yankees, you'd be krauts...."

"one soviet linesman, there's not one soviet linesman..."

"you are Krauts, and you know you are..."

"cheer up english people, oh how must it feel, to have a swedish gaffer, and a german queen..."

oh hello yorkie, happy new year to you and ur husband..and all others by the way...

"no world war but 3 world cups...do dah, do dah..."

German Sheperd perpetuating the "appalling" behaviour he so clearly dislikes.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Well I've waded through this and whilst I concede German Shepherd may have a point I feel he is being unrealistic and perhaps even ungrateful to the efforts put in by the FA and English police to eradicate hooliganism.

His first post begins something like "English fans, great ambassadors ....... not!" I then expected to read something about bars trashed, policemen hospitalised, locals terrorised, etc - indeed the usual 'English abroad' stuff. Instead he's moaning about plastic Spitfires! I would like to point out that only eight years ago English fans were trashing France (in the same way they'd trashed Italy in 1990). We were the scum of Europe, everybody despised and pitied us and it was easy to see why.

I'll think plastic spitfires and a few tasteless chants are a vast improvement, he should be praising us for the progress we've made since 1998.

Well said. We have made huge progress from the tournaments of the past, and that is something we should be very proud of.

I still think the chants and spitfires etc. are outlandish and I don't see the need for it. Nothing from the bygone era is to be proud of. Obviously you can't control everyone and there are always a few.

My previous posts were to put across the other side.

I think the Germans have done a remarkable job in controlling everyone and so far (touch wood) there has been very little trouble.

GS, it seems as if you are trying to pick at anything that the English do to justify condemning us. The fact is we have been well behaved and was it not the Germans and Polish that have caused the most trouble so far?

 

[Napper]

bullshit post , was out in frankfurt and apart from a few pi sed english which were still not offending anyone the worse i saw was a fan climb up a statue and put a flag on it . . .

Have mates out to all group games and a similar story reported from nuremburg + so far cologne

the songs about bombers etc are non stop but even the police were laughing along , no one takes it seriously.

 

[e77]

After the trouble at the Germany v Poland game the other night perhaps they should get their own house in order before criticising us.

Oh, I forget. England is the only country in the world with a hooligan problem.

 

[Lammy]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

[Brovion]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

Some of us have only just read it!

 

[m20gull]

Some of us have only just read it!

Yeah! Me, too. I've been away.

If Germanshepherd's original point was about the relative media coverage then fair enough. There are far too many generalisations about the way people behave, whether its English in general, football fans in general or english football fans.

There are lots of visitors in Germany. some of them will get drunk; some of them will behave badly. They won't all be English.

 

[attila]

I read this thread with some interest...
As some of you know I watch St. Pauli whenever I'm on tour in Germany. The racism, hatred and
vitriol directed at St Pauli fans by all kinds of neo fascist goons (especially in the East) makes anything I have seen in this country in recent years look like harmless banter - fortunately
the Paulis are well capable of looking after themselves in this regard! There is lots right with German football, GS: you've still got terraces and fought hard to keep them, your ticket prices are how they should be (it cost me 13 Euros for a ticket for Pauli-Bayern in the cup semi final) and the atmosphere in the stadia is great. But there is far more violence at domestic football than here in the Uk and grounds like Chemnitz and Cottbus are Nazi-ridden hell holes!

 

[Uncle Buck]

After the trouble at the Germany v Poland game the other night perhaps they should get their own house in order before criticising us.

Oh, I forget. England is the only country in the world with a hooligan problem.

That might be a good idea, after all the Germans were so well behaved in Dortmund.

Have been back and forth for the 2 England games and the atmosphere has been great. Yes the English are attempting to drink the place dry but compared with 6 years ago in Belgium watching England is a completely different experience now. A lot has been done to clean things up and yes there is still some scum attached to the team, but there is more self policing amongst the fans and people now seem far more ready to take in a bit of the local culture than they used to.

The German police have to take a lot of credit to date with what is going on, they have listened to their English counterparts and are not just wading in, but trying to defuse situations.

Was in Munich on Wednesday and went to the Olympic Park to watch Germany v Poland on the bank. Got talking to 3 Germans (a couple of rather nice ladies in there) and ended up going out with them in Munich until 3am and now have an open invite to the Octoberfest (sp). But they must like scum....

 

[GermanShepherd]

ok, i take everything back!!!!

its ok to pi$$ on the streets, smash windows, abuse the locals, foreigners,. its ok to show no respect to the country you are guests in, its ok to behave like c�nts, its ok to walk into a church chanting "engerland, engerland" and "no surrender to the IRA", wear WW2 helmets, sing about the killings of civilians etc.....

as long as they dont fight the behaviour is GREAT!!!

[/irony-mode=off]

and for those who obviously cannot read, or do not want to understand: IT IS NOT ALL ENGLAND FANS!!!!

but the ones who go over the top spoil it for genuie football supporters, especially their own countrymen.

and i too heard that england fans stopped their own fellow supporters from doing hitler salutes. well done, whoever it was....

there are england supporters over there who are a pleasure to have, who join the other nations and celebrate the game. met england fans who were great, good laugh, conversations etc

i was on about those scum, who show no respect for the country, culture and people. these are not hooligans, but drunken jobs in england shirts

Lokki 7; thought you'd understand the difference between banter on a football board and when you actually visit a country and chant abuse towards the hosts. obviously not...

want to see your face IF ours would glorify the coventry and london bombings, the sinking of the lusitania etc.

if that would happen, i would be disgusted and ashamed and wouldnt reply with "well done" messages...

it was great to see that genuie football fans condemn that jobbish behaviour, as much as i do. i dont make a difference between brits, germans, french or whatever.

i hope we will have no serious trouble (from whatever nation's w@nkers) for the rest of the tournament.

have a good world cup, exciting games and if you go over, have a great time

 

[GermanShepherd]

I can't believe this thread is still going...

me neither

 

[Silent Bob]

INGERLAND INGERLAND INGERLAND

 

[GermanShepherd]

fine with me... england deserved to stuff us that night.

not mentioning wembley's last stand of course....

and no penalty shoot-outs...

 

[Silent Bob]

But we'll smash you in the second round unless you can scrape a win against Ecuador.

 

[Brovion]

...
as long as they dont fight the behaviour is GREAT!!!
...

NO! That is precisely what I WASN'T saying! I said we have made vast, almost unbelievable attempts to eradicate hooliganism and you either haven't noticed and/or haven't realised the work that's been put in by the FA, the government,. the Police and the fans themselves. Instead all you can do is carp on about the admittedly boorish behaviour of some fans. An English expression is 'for you the glass is half empty', you won't acknowledge the positives.

You would have had a more positive response on here if the tone of your original post had been something like "Hey, really pleased about how well, comparatively speaking, the English fans are behaving, but I've still got a couple of little moans". Instead all you've done is point out what still offends you whilst ironically (your words) applauding the lack of violence in a patronising "not much violence, well done!" tone as if it were a minor achievment. It isn't.


... and the reason this thread is still going is twofold; firstly some of us didn't see it until yesterday (Monday) so it's new to us. Secondly not all the arguments have been examined yet. Expect it to rumble on for a few more days yet.

 

[Mr Blobby]

Originally posted by GermanShepherd
"i hope we will have no serious trouble (from whatever nation's w@nkers) for the rest of the tournament."


"When Polish and German fans clashed around their match on 14 June, Dortmund police made 429 arrests, including 119 Poles and 278 Germans. "

Now if that had been a game involving England they would have been headlines on every paper and calls for the team to be sent home!

 

[Brovion]

Just adding I now know how Laughing Bluebird feels when he comes on here saying how much progress Cardiff are making in reigning in their hooligan element!

 

[Timbo]

The only 2 posts in this thread worth reading are this and Caravan Clubs.

Those who have attended the World Cup or other recent major championships know that whilst there is the odd twatish behaviour, its not (a) Confined to the English and is (b) the exception rather than the rule.

and (c) it is blown out of all proportion by everyone who's never been to an England game abroad and the scummy tabloids.

When I was on the hovercraft back from France after the Tunisia game in Marseille I was very surprised to read that, according to the Mirror, the Tunisian throwing a glass across a street and getting arrested immediately and everyone laughing at him, had in fact been a pitched battle with showers of glasses raining from the skies which lasted some ten minutes as riot police fought to regain control of the streets.