DNR

[glasfryn]

BBC News - Downs syndrome patient challenges resuscitation order

seems to me like the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing the doctors who made this decision should go and have a meeting with those doctors administering the poor souls who have locked in syndrome and want to die.

personally I don't want to go and die in a hospital or a nursing home at this moment in time I have nothing life threatening but if I am still able to think for myself and I am taken off to hospital with any threat then those few letters will pass my lips
there is a difference between the words life and living I would never make any animal live longer than they should in pain for my own gratification nor would I want to do it to myself for really no reason at all.

 

[clippedgull]

He hasn't said where he heard this or which trusts are involved, do you have any evidence to back up what you just agreed is happening in NHS?

See my post (just above) re. my mum. Nurses will tell you that managers are always looking to cut costs in every department. I don't have firm proof of course otherwise I would reveal solid info to the relevant bodies. But if you think that the NHS saves everyone it can, at whatever cost, I think that is a naive view.

 

[arkan]

I work for a non emergency tranport company.
The patient does NOT have to be aware that the DNAR is in place.
Hence why that wouldnt be on any records that the patient may well have. The hospitals obviously need to know about it (sometimes they dont). But we are never allowed to ask the patient if they have it in place, just in case they dont know about it.

 

[martyn20]

See my post (just above) re. my mum. Nurses will tell you that managers are always looking to cut costs in every department. I don't have firm proof of course otherwise I would reveal solid info to the relevant bodies. But if you think that the NHS saves everyone it can, at whatever cost, I think that is a naive view.

So you don't have any evidence that certain trusts do not resuscitate certain patients in order to save costs? You just think it's happening but have not actually heard it does happen from anyone but the previous poster you agreed with who also has not supply any sources or evidence?

 

[clippedgull]

So you don't have any evidence that certain trusts do not resuscitate certain patients in order to save costs? You just think it's happening but have not actually heard it does happen from anyone but the previous poster you agreed with who also has not supply any sources or evidence?

Do you work for the NHS in any capacity?

Do you know that they put 100% NHS wide into saving every patient who doesn't request a DNR?

If you do, your knowledge is no more valid than mine. Unless you can back it up with evidence. I can't and I have stated as much. I just have very deep suspicions which I believe to be correct but not in the public domain.

 

[martyn20]

Do you work for the NHS in any capacity?

Do you know that they put 100% into saving every patient who doesn't request a DNR?

If you do, your knowledge is no more valid than mine.

What is being suggested is certain NHS managers are allowing certain patients to die to save the Trust funds, all I asked for was evidence to confirm this is happening, nobody has supplied it yet. Hard for me to get evidence to prove something is not happening.
I have run online supports groups based in this country and around the world and spoken to hundreds of people with serious heart conditions, some who have had transplants, some successful some not, I have not heard of one case where a patient that could have been saved was allowed to die by medical staff to save a hospital money.
I would be very interested to hear where both of you that mentioned it heard this is happening, that's all.

 

[clippedgull]

What is being suggested is certain NHS managers are allowing certain patients to die to save the Trust funds, all I asked for was evidence to confirm this is happening, nobody has supplied it yet. Hard for me to get evidence to prove something is not happening.
I have run online supports groups based in this country and around the world and spoken to hundreds of people with serious heart conditions, some who have had transplants, some successful some not, I have not heard of one case where a patient that could have been saved was allowed to die by medical staff to save a hospital money.
I would be very interested to hear where both of you that mentioned it heard this is happening, that's all.

Maybe a scandal still awaiting the brave whistleblower?

Elderly patients with no living relatives, or relatives that have abandoned them? Who knows what treatment they had declined by the NHS on monetary grounds.?

I really hope my suspicions are unfounded, but sadly it's not a perfect world.

 

[drew]

See my post (just above) re. my mum. Nurses will tell you that managers are always looking to cut costs in every department. I don't have firm proof of course otherwise I would reveal solid info to the relevant bodies. But if you think that the NHS saves everyone it can, at whatever cost, I think that is a naive view.

It's your view that is naive and from the same conspiracy school as the likes of Dingodan and Brunswick!!!! You say you don't have firm proof. In fact you don't seem to have any proof. Yes, managers are always seeking to ensure savings wherever they can but to suggest they force depts to allow vulnerable people to die is defamatory.

Do you work for the NHS in any capacity?

Do you know that they put 100% NHS wide into saving every patient who doesn't request a DNR?

If you do, your knowledge is no more valid than mine. Unless you can back it up with evidence. I can't and I have stated as much. I just have very deep suspicions which I believe to be correct but not in the public domain.

My wife works for the NHS in a specialist area where death is regrettably frequent and unavoidable. They make decisions on treatment based on clinical facts, not a balance sheet. I can assure you that she, and those that I know that work for her, would be whistleblowing to kingdom come if they believed otherwise. The vast majority of nurses enter the profession because it is a vocation and they have a desire to help. They are being shat upon by managers and the DofH and now idiots like you spout totally unfounded allegations.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

This will be the headline story of the local newspaper tomorrow : Death rates at Grimsby and Scunthorpe Hospitals are among the worst in the country, a new report released today has revealed.

For more information, including shocking details of patients' experiences , see tomorrow's Grimsby Telegraph

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

DNR without consent = cost savings

How cynical. I have a daughter who is a doctor, and that would not come in to it.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Maybe a scandal still awaiting the brave whistleblower?

Elderly patients with no living relatives, or relatives that have abandoned them? Who knows what treatment they had declined by the NHS on monetary grounds.?

I really hope my suspicions are unfounded, but sadly it's not a perfect world.

NHS managers have absolutely zero input into whether DNAR forms are signed. This is purely a clinical decision and it would be horrendous negligence if one was signed to 'cut costs'.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I had an elderly friend who had bladder cancer and died on the operating table. She was resuscitated and lived for another 6 months but in that last 6 months there was virtually no quality of life. Her younger sister insisted that DNAR was put on her own medical notes as she didn't want to go through the same ordeal.

 

[tiberious]

firstly sorry for any spelling mistakes but I have been drinking, My take on this is personal as my father passed away in February this year after a number of years in and out of hospital. he was a shadow of his former self and wanted to die. he ahd the DNR on his notes but it can also be put on by the doctor but usually with elderly patients. they aso advised us that they had put him on the liverpool pathway. This means they remove the medication and jut give them pain relief. for me this was a blessing as he was obviously dying an dwas incapable of looking after himself . He was double incontinetn and could not walk. He had always been an active man who like reading. However the one time i took him to teh nort stand at teh Goldstone he threatened to punch some poor guy for stepping on his foot when we scored.. I was accused by his side of the family of killing him despite it actually being the doctors decision as I agreed with them.
I think in all these situations it comes down to the individual case and they cannot al be judged the same.
Sorry for being so depressive but all will be well tomorrow when we beat Wednesday

 

[martyn20]

This will be the headline story of the local newspaper tomorrow : Death rates at Grimsby and Scunthorpe Hospitals are among the worst in the country, a new report released today has revealed.

For more information, including shocking details of patients' experiences , see tomorrow's Grimsby Telegraph

Does that article back up your claim that DNR's are used to save NHS money?

 

[glasfryn]

firstly sorry for any spelling mistakes but I have been drinking, My take on this is personal as my father passed away in February this year after a number of years in and out of hospital. he was a shadow of his former self and wanted to die. he ahd the DNR on his notes but it can also be put on by the doctor but usually with elderly patients. they aso advised us that they had put him on the liverpool pathway. This means they remove the medication and jut give them pain relief. for me this was a blessing as he was obviously dying an dwas incapable of looking after himself . He was double incontinetn and could not walk. He had always been an active man who like reading. However the one time i took him to teh nort stand at teh Goldstone he threatened to punch some poor guy for stepping on his foot when we scored.. I was accused by his side of the family of killing him despite it actually being the doctors decision as I agreed with them.
I think in all these situations it comes down to the individual case and they cannot al be judged the same.
Sorry for being so depressive but all will be well tomorrow when we beat Wednesday

my mum had dementia and while in hospital she contracted a chest infection and went into a coma, my Dad rung me to say he had decided to go the Liverpool Pathway(never heard it called that before) and she passed away the following day.
my Dad and I never got on, but he was that day a hero as I had seen a week before how she was, knew me for a matter of some 30 seconds then off to another place in her mind,I don't even like thinking about it now, but the decision he made that day(he never asked just told me) was the best decision he ever made.
and for that decision that day I will always love him.
I just hope that if I do go that way before realising it someone will love me enough to do the same.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

My mother-in-law died at the beginning of the year. She had a fall in december and was in and out of hospital from her residential home a couple of times when things "got worse" before finally being allowed to slip away with some dignity - she was 95 and well past her sell by date, as she herself said in her more lucid moments.

We had the opposite experience to what some are trying to imply here. There was mis-communication at various points between the home and the hospital, and too much effort was made to keep her alive once or twice because the DNR (DNAR) stuff was in place in one environment and not in the other. My wife at one point had a very reassuring and moving conversation with a youngish and compassionate female doctor about the patients ultimate dignity and comfort..... , which is what it ought to be all about.

There is not much of a distance here between this and assisted dying. Anyone who worries that the legalisation of assisted dying would give doctors carte blanche to get rid of people to save money or to make a donor organ available are horribly wrong. Any doctor who did anything untoward would get clobbered. And as said elsewhere, these are doctors' decisions, not administrators' decisions.

 

[Acker79]

the Liverpool Pathway(never heard it called that before)

Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute Liverpool - More information on LCP

(apologies if truncating the message offends, I didn't want to quote it and ignore it, but thought I'd post the link for anyone who is interested).

 

[glasfryn]

Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute Liverpool - More information on LCP

(apologies if truncating the message offends, I didn't want to quote it and ignore it, but thought I'd post the link for anyone who is interested).

thanks for putting that on mate its very interesting and informative ...............and at this moment in time is the best way to go

 

[Uwinsc]

It is an incredibly difficult decision for anyone or their family to have a DNR in place, I have looked after a couple of children who had them in place after discussions between families and specialist drs and although for all of them it was the best decision I know it must have been an impossible discussion to have. They all had terminal and very nasty conditions.

 

[Wardy]

I cannot think I would ever choose to have this since the fighter in me would want to keep on. That said I am currently healthy. I would imagine this might change if I was in consent pain.