[Football] Diarra legal action against FIFA (Bosman 2.0)

[Change at Barnham]

The Observer article - Will the Lassana Diarra case bring down transfer market as we know it?

You'll probably need to sit down and read the above article a couple of times to get your head around it.
But it seems next week (4th Oct) could be a big day in the future of the transfer market and the control FIFA has over it.

Ideally we probably need a dullard to explain it to many of us in more simple terms.
I'm sure there will be one popping up sometime next week on a TV near you.

 

[beorhthelm]

TLDR, Diarra downed tools, was sacked and FIFA enforced rules that meant the player couldn't sign elsewhere for a time.

it's quite a specific set of circumstances that are unlikely to be common, and some tweaks to how FIFA operate would resolve this. or worse case they get dropped from the process, as noted to the end of the article.

 

[Change at Barnham]

My understanding after reading the article....

It looks like the player was dropped for a lack of performance after signing for Lokomotiv Moscow.
Lokomotiv then decided to reduce his contracted salary which caused him to rebel.
They then went further and cancelled his agreed contract three years early and demanded £20m compensation.

FIFA then banned Diarra until he paid £10.5 back to Lokomotiv for downing tools/being dropped (you choose).
Diarra couldn't then sign for anyone else because FIFA controlled his registration and had decided it was his fault Lokomotiv didn't fancy him anymore.

So should FIFA be able to restrict the transfer of players on their terms?

“The likely practical outcome of Diarra will be that the transfer system in football, as we know it, will fall,” was one of the conclusions drawn by the Belgian sports law experts and academics Robby Houben, Oliver Budzinski and Melchior Wathelet – himself a former advocate general of the CJEU – when they examined the case in June.

What would replace it in actual terms is not clear, however, apart from one thing: Fifa would probably lose its overall authority over the transfer market, with collective bargaining involving clubs and players becoming the norm, as it already is in other sports.

I'm not sure what collective bargaining is, or how it works in other sports.
Can anyone tell me?

 

[Han Solo]

There's a lot of things in European football that doesn't survive in a court. Will be interesting to see the consequences from this.
Long term I think leagues are going to be a lot more like MLS where the teams and the players are "owned" by the league, with investors (owners) buying the rights to operate the teams. Its a lot easier to regulate and leads to less legal issues.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

TLDR, Diarra downed tools, was sacked and FIFA enforced rules that meant the player couldn't sign elsewhere for a time.

it's quite a specific set of circumstances that are unlikely to be common, and some tweaks to how FIFA operate would resolve this. or worse case they get dropped from the process, as noted to the end of the article.

If Diarra wins it will most likely mean FIFA cannot hold registrations going forward. What are the implications of this? I guess this can be answered by understanding why they hold them in the first place? Anyone know the answer?

 

[Han Solo]

If Diarra wins it will most likely mean FIFA cannot hold registrations going forward. What are the implications of this? I guess this can be answered by understanding why they hold them in the first place? Anyone know the answer?

To avoid the chaos that often surrounded transfers before this centralised system was introduced in the 1930s.
As it stands you have to participate in this system if you want to have any sort of affiliation with FIFA, which is basically a requirement to play professional football as there's really no competing organisations.

Hardly laws of nature though and now when football is a multi billion business, someone was always going to challenge FIFA's position in football.

 

[Motogull]

There's a lot of things in European football that doesn't survive in a court. Will be interesting to see the consequences from this.
Long term I think leagues are going to be a lot more like MLS where the teams and the players are "owned" by the league, with investors (owners) buying the rights to operate the teams. Its a lot easier to regulate and leads to less legal issues.

Fewer. Get that right and your English will be upgraded from near perfect.

 

[beorhthelm]

If Diarra wins it will most likely mean FIFA cannot hold registrations going forward. What are the implications of this? I guess this can be answered by understanding why they hold them in the first place? Anyone know the answer?

seems more likely any judgement in favour of Diarra could say FIFA has to change how they manage registrations. its doesn't need to be a complete end to registration.

 

[Bodian]

Fewer. Get that right and your English will be upgraded from near perfect.

Although, actually, he may have got it spot on! That is - it could lead to more issues that are less legal...

Who knows?

 

[El Presidente]

The Observer article - Will the Lassana Diarra case bring down transfer market as we know it?

You'll probably need to sit down and read the above article a couple of times to get your head around it.
But it seems next week (4th Oct) could be a big day in the future of the transfer market and the control FIFA has over it.

Ideally we probably need a dullard to explain it to many of us in more simple terms.
I'm sure there will be one popping up sometime next week on a TV near you.

I believe a dullard had former Albion goal machine Maheta Molango on a tedious podcast a few weeks ago talking about this topic.

Maheta

 

[AZ Gull]

....

I'm not sure what collective bargaining is, or how it works in other sports.
Can anyone tell me?

I'll give you a brief overview for Major League Baseball (as I understand it - I certainly wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert).

There is a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) which is negotiated between the MLBPA (the Players Association, basically the players' union) and MLB (the sport's governing body, which is essentially the owners who also choose the Commissioner of MLB).

The CBA covers various things including scheduling of matches and rest days, minimum salaries (depending on player seniority), size of rosters, players bonuses from play-off matches etc.

Teams acquire players primarily through the draft (the order of which is based upon the teams' finishing position the year before). Players are drafted from both High School and College (university). The CBA defines what players are paid in the minor leagues (known as a team's farm system - the various levels that young players graduate through on their way - hopefully - to "The Show" - the major leagues).

Once a player gets called up to the majors then the clock starts ticking on their "Service time". I believe they spend three years at league minimum and can then get increases through a process called arbitration for another three years. After those combined six years they become free agents. At any point during this process, though, the player can negotiate a much bigger contract with the team.

Importantly, the contracts are guaranteed. Also, players can be traded from one team to another but the contract moves with the player (so the new team would be liable for the remaining years of the contract). Some players negotiate the ability to refuse trades (perhaps to certain teams).

There are also processes in place defining rules for players who get "released" by their team (designated for assignment - DFA'ed) or who don't make the roster, etc).

It is very complex (and there have indeed been strikes, shut-outs, cancelled seasons and reduced seasons when agreement couldn't be reached) but it can work because essentially it is a single market (ie North America). There are also rules governing players coming in from Japan/South Korea etc and also young players coming from Central and South America.

It is very difficult to comprehend how you could apply CBA in either a Europe-wide or even a world-wide sport such as football.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

If Diarra wins it will most likely mean FIFA cannot hold registrations going forward. What are the implications of this? I guess this can be answered by understanding why they hold them in the first place? Anyone know the answer?

I think the implication is that any player can quit his contract with a club and FIFA could not prevent him signing with another club. Would immediately render transfer fees moot, because the whole purpose of them is to buy a players registration.

Obviously that wouldn't be the final word on it because that would allow any player to change clubs at any time, and any club to get rid of any player at any time, seems like anarchy. There would have to be clauses in each players individual contract to prevent the above happening, and a CBA would essentially agree standard clauses that went into every players contract to prevent lesser players being exploited and smaller clubs being exploited. How that gets agreed across 200+ FAs and 100's of thousands of clubs god only knows. Because FIFAs player registration system is already close to ideal in that regard.

Looks like FIFA f***ed up by allowing the club to sack the player and then determining that the club was owed money by the player, never heard of a situation like that before. Seems one way out is just to say they were wrong and change that specific thing, but the can of worms may be opened.

 

[Albion my Albion]

I'll give you a brief overview for Major League Baseball (as I understand it - I certainly wouldn't claim to be any sort of expert).

There is a Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) which is negotiated between the MLBPA (the Players Association, basically the players' union) and MLB (the sport's governing body, which is essentially the owners who also choose the Commissioner of MLB).

The CBA covers various things including scheduling of matches and rest days, minimum salaries (depending on player seniority), size of rosters, players bonuses from play-off matches etc.

Teams acquire players primarily through the draft (the order of which is based upon the teams' finishing position the year before). Players are drafted from both High School and College (university). The CBA defines what players are paid in the minor leagues (known as a team's farm system - the various levels that young players graduate through on their way - hopefully - to "The Show" - the major leagues).

Once a player gets called up to the majors then the clock starts ticking on their "Service time". I believe they spend three years at league minimum and can then get increases through a process called arbitration for another three years. After those combined six years they become free agents. At any point during this process, though, the player can negotiate a much bigger contract with the team.

Importantly, the contracts are guaranteed. Also, players can be traded from one team to another but the contract moves with the player (so the new team would be liable for the remaining years of the contract). Some players negotiate the ability to refuse trades (perhaps to certain teams).

There are also processes in place defining rules for players who get "released" by their team (designated for assignment - DFA'ed) or who don't make the roster, etc).

It is very complex (and there have indeed been strikes, shut-outs, cancelled seasons and reduced seasons when agreement couldn't be reached) but it can work because essentially it is a single market (ie North America). There are also rules governing players coming in from Japan/South Korea etc and also young players coming from Central and South America.

It is very difficult to comprehend how you could apply CBA in either a Europe-wide or even a world-wide sport such as football.

I think the most interesting thing about baseball contracts is there is a clock that starts on an MLB player once he reaches the major league level there is an amount of time before he can be a free agent. So when a player in the baseball minor leagues suddenly starts playing incredibly above the level of the minor leagues there is a real reluctance for the major league club that owns his contract to bring him to the major league level because that starts his clock towards free agency. A team has to assess if they truly need that player at the major league level because they could lose a whole year of having that "really good" player on their team.

 

[The Optimist]

Is there any other field of employment where an individual can be held liable for money that would in anyway equate to a transfer fee (I remember Mutu got sued for £15m(?) by Chelsea after being sacked for taking cocaine)?

Most jobs if you commit gross misconduct you’re sacked and that’s it. Maybe you have to pay back some recent training costs or enhanced maternity pay but pretty much being sacked is the punishment. Being sued for £10m+ because of the transfer fee your club paid seems harsh - although in some ways why should the club lose out if the fault lies with the player?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Is there any other field of employment where an individual can be held liable for money that would in anyway equate to a transfer fee (I remember Mutu got sued for £15m(?) by Chelsea after being sacked for taking cocaine)?

Most jobs if you commit gross misconduct you’re sacked and that’s it. Maybe you have to pay back some recent training costs or enhanced maternity pay but pretty much being sacked is the punishment. Being sued for £10m+ because of the transfer fee your club paid seems harsh - although in some ways why should the club lose out if the fault lies with the player?

Because the club is buying his registration, not buying the player. It's a really weird decision by FIFA to make the player liable for his transfer fee.

 

[The Optimist]

Because the club is buying his registration, not buying the player. It's a really weird decision by FIFA to make the player liable for his transfer fee.

But not the first time they have done so. Mutu was held liable for his transfer fee.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

But not the first time they have done so. Mutu was held liable for his transfer fee.

Oh yeah, i recall. It's ridiculous. It's not like he can just pay back money he's received, it was never his in the first place. These players are rich, but they're not that rich.

 

[JetsetJimbo]

We now have a decision, the CJEU has ruled against FIFA. I've never felt so stupid as I have this last half-hour or so of trying to figure out what this is gonna mean for clubs like ours in practice. I'm just totally baffled.

 

[Giraffe]

Potentially the end of "small" clubs?

 

[beorhthelm]

contrasting with Guardian report, the BBC article titled Some transfer rules break EU Law.

key note:

A Fifa spokesman said: "Fifa is satisfied that the legality of key principles of the transfer system have been reconfirmed in today's ruling.
"The ruling only puts in question two paragraphs of two articles of the Fifa regulations on the status and transfer of players, which the national court is now invited to consider."