Death Sentance

[Simster]

Before the death penalty was repealled South Afirca had a low murder rate (probably comparable to the UK).

This is arguably the biggest load of bollocks I have EVER seen passed off as fact on here.

Murder In South Africa: A Comparison Of Past And Present

A Murderous Legacy, Coloured homicide trends in South Africa
"Prior to 1994, the coloured male homicide rate peaked in 1982 at over 160 per 100,000, and has remained over 80 per 100,000 since 1980. The female murder rate has been much less at between 20 and 40 per 100,000 (Figure 2)."

 

[The Ringleader Returns!]

Dunno if it has been brought up before but would the persons mental health be brought into the decission to whether they were killed or not. Some people aren't all there and don't realise that what they do will have a reaction and consequences. Where do you draw the line at who is and isn't responsible for their own actions.

Death Sentance will never work because nobody can agree on where the limits should be. Some people would say it should be life for a life and others will arguee that it should include Rapists and paedos. Others extremes would make a case for Animal cruelty, heavy drug use etc etc.

 

[simmo]

But the end of apartheid is something that has to be considered. If you are trying to draw a link between the safety/murder rate of a place before and after abolition of the death penalty, you can't refuse to discuss other things that might also play into the safety/murder rates, and when you are relying on personal opinions of individuals, you have to put their opinions in context, especially when the change in political power and social status of races is involved.

It is not relevant, this is crime you are talking about and the death penalty. Not the way that a state deals (badly) with certain members of it's community.

Is it relevant to the question of death penalty being used/not used in the southern states of the USA whom also operated an "apartheid" like system up to the 60's and 70's.

 

[El Presidente]

i feel it would decrease the amount of innocent people dieing, look at it this way, a murderer would think twice if they knew that it is likely to result in death for them, meaning less innocent people getting murdered in the first place

Except your argument is not backed by statistical analysis

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/det...alty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

 

[Simster]

It is not relevant, this is crime you are talking about and the death penalty. Not the way that a state deals (badly) with certain members of it's community.

Is it relevant to the question of death penalty being used/not used in the southern states of the USA whom also operated an "apartheid" like system up to the 60's and 70's.

Of course it's relevant.

Unless you really want us to believe that their homicide rate has gone from 800 a year in 1994 (comparible to the UK, as *you* say) to 18,500 a year in the space of 15 years.

 

[User removed 4]

Except your argument is not backed by statistical analysis

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/det...alty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

It says nothing about the socio-economic conditions or the overall crime rate disparity between death peanalty/non death penalty states either , so it doesnt really prove a lot imo.

 

[simmo]

Of course it's relevant.

Unless you really want us to believe that their homicide rate has gone from 800 a year in 1994 (comparible to the UK, as *you* say) to 18,500 a year in the space of 15 years.

I can't find something which shows UK and South African figures side by side in say the mid 70's or mid 80's, but I can find this which shows in point II that South Africa was not in the top 10 murder rates in the mid 1970's but was number 2 in 2003. Which is the main point I am trying to make and you know it is.

DEATH BY MURDER

Also right at the bottom in point VII there is an interesting article about capital punishment and homicide which shows that when the death penatly was repealed in the US in the mid 70's murder increased rapidly leading to it being re-instated.

 

[Simster]

I can't find something which shows UK and South African figures side by side in say the mid 70's or mid 80's, but I can find this which shows in point II that South Africa was not in the top 10 murder rates in the mid 1970's but was number 2 in 2003. Which is the main point I am trying to make and you know it is.

I didn't know that at all, which shows you're doing a piss poor job of trying.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that murder rates have gone from 800 to 18500 in 15 years. That paper happens to show two lists of top ten murder rates in different years. My guess is that figures weren't available for RSA before 1990, seeing as the powers that be didn't give a toss about 95% of the population back in those days.

I'd be interested if you could find me one reputable article to suggest that SA's murder rate has risen as catastrophically in that time as you want us to believe. I think the truth is that murder rates have always been a problem in SA, but it is coming down.

 

[Acker79]

I can't find something which shows UK and South African figures side by side in say the mid 70's or mid 80's, but I can find this which shows in point II that South Africa was not in the top 10 murder rates in the mid 1970's but was number 2 in 2003. Which is the main point I am trying to make and you know it is.

This is all in the frame of a discussion on the effectiveness of the death penalty. You're seeing that change and looking at one thing that might have an impact, the repel of the death penalty and saying it is the cause, without proving it.

To prove it, or even just for a full on deabte on the effectiveness of the death penalty, you need to look at other possible causes in the change of crime rates and (if you can) show how they are not an effect.

Other than the death penalty repel what else happened between the mid 70s and 2003?

Apartheid ended.

You have to show it had no effect on crime rates and not simply dismiss it as irrelevant or pathetic.

 

[simmo]

I didn't know that at all, which shows you're doing a piss poor job of trying.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that to prove that murder rates have gone from 800 to 18500 in 15 years. That paper happens to show two lists of top ten murder rates in different years. My guess is that figures weren't available for RSA before 1990, seeing as the powers that be didn't give a toss about 95% of the population back in those days.

I'd be interested if you could find me one reputable article to suggest that SA's murder rate has risen as catastrophically in that time as you want us to believe. I think the truth is that murder rates have always been a problem in SA, but it is coming down.

I am sorry but you are the one that is quoting those figures not me. Maybe I was a bit wrong to say it was as safe as the UK, maybe I should have said it didn't have a murder rate above the average (but that is not really the point I am trying to make and you know it is).

The most important thing really is what do people actually feel and I would be interested to know whether KZSeagull feels if South Africa is more or less dangerous since amongst other things the death penalty was overturned.

Care to comment on the homicide figures in the US before and after the repellation of the death penalty. Which is a good example of what I am actually trying to argue not about apartheid or anything like that but the death penalty which is the subject at hand.

 

[bhaexpress]

Of course it's relevant.

Unless you really want us to believe that their homicide rate has gone from 800 a year in 1994 (comparible to the UK, as *you* say) to 18,500 a year in the space of 15 years.

I think with South Africa when it was a white man killing a black it didn't matter and there were no stats for blacks under apartheid as at the end of the day who cared if they killed each other, not the ruling Whites certainly.

 

[Kukev31]

I am sorry but you are the one that is quoting those figures not me. Maybe I was a bit wrong to say it was as safe as the UK, maybe I should have said it didn't have a murder rate above the average (but that is not really the point I am trying to make and you know it is).

The most important thing really is what do people actually feel and I would be interested to know whether KZSeagull feels if South Africa is more or less dangerous since amongst other things the death penalty was overturned.

Care to comment on the homicide figures in the US before and after the repellation of the death penalty. Which is a good example of what I am actually trying to argue not about apartheid or anything like that but the death penalty which is the subject at hand.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

 

[User removed 4]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

This link has already been used, and as i stated earlier it says nothing about the socio-economic differences or the overall disparity in crime rates between death penalty/non death penalty states.

 

[fire&skill]

Even with the obvious loaded prejudice of your statement next to the 'No' option, it's good to see the majority of NSCers bothered to vote aren't living in the stone age.

 

[simmo]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

You cannot compare two different areas, just as you cannot compare the UK and the US because of different rules (esp with regard to gun laws) you cannot compare two different states (which also may have different laws). Different states in the US have different socio-economic situations that other areas do/don't have. A state with the death penalty may for example may have lots of gangland issues and therefore more murders, wheras other areas do not, e.g California which does have the death penatly and Hawaii which does not.

The real comparison you have is before and after an abolition/re-instatmeent, not a comparison of two areas with differing problems.

 

[Notters]

The death penalty in no deterrent that's been proved in this country and elsewhere but there are some people who have no redeeming qualities. Also there is one crime where we still have the death penalty in this country, treason.

Myth.

 

[simmo]

Myth.

Correct, the option of the death penalty for treason (and piracy) was repealled by Jack Straw in the early 2000's.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

A 'death penalty' that remains is being able to kill at Scotsman in York, but only if he is carrying a bow and arrow.