[Politics] Cost of Living Crisis

[Herr Tubthumper]

This was an interesting thread, it’s a shame [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] has completely derailed it.

 

[Weststander]

It was you suggesting Polands history with Germany made dealing with a German EU official painful, if you were not referring to the history of the period of Nazi Germany, I apologise, if you were, get off your tiny high horse.

(Shetland Pony)

 

[usernamed]

Exactly.

There is no raging consumption boom to quell. The opposite, credit card and loan debts reduced with folk unable to spend on travel.

Inflation this time has been caused by unique factors outside of the traditional reason of demand from consumers. Car fuel, home energy, food, supply chain issues.

When BoE monetary committee members speak to the media, they say it’s to reduce inflation to 2%. How will raising the cost of all forms of lending, negate the higher cost of petrol, gas, elec, food and imported goods?

Additionally, we’ve increasingly become a credit based economy.

In the past, conventional economic wisdom was that low interest rates encouraged spending and discouraged saving. People wanting returns on their money had to usefully invest it (take risk) or spend it (credit is cheap) which grew the economy.

However, if large chunks of the population are already living hand to mouth and utilising credit for larger purchases, without having savings (it’s been decades since there’s been any point in having a savings account with rates lower than inflation) then raising interest rates causes as many problems as it solves, because saving may now become desirable, but not viable, as the money that (before our switch to consumer credit) may have gone into a savings account, instead has to be used to meet the increased cost of mortgages/credit cards/loans. From a household perspective, raised interest rates are now in themselves inflationary.

We are not in a consumer boom, we’ve privatised the essentials (housing, energy, transport) and it is there that most of the inflation lies (food and automobiles too) and I have not yet heard a convincing argument from any economist or politician of any stripe as to how we extricate ourselves from this US led mess of our own making.

The only route out that I can see is effectively trickle up economics, but given our current political mindset, it’s safe to say that we’ve got decades of feckless politicians tinkering around the edges trying to prevent us trying this before we eventually, grudgingly, accept the inevitable.

 

[nicko31]

"We're all in this together"

Huge profits but oil giant admits to paying zero tax in North Sea

https://www.channel4.com/news/huge-profits-but-oil-giant-admits-to-paying-zero-tax-in-north-sea

Alas, no windfall tax. Time we also ditched public funded subsides on fossil fuels too....

 

[Weststander]

Additionally, we’ve increasingly become a credit based economy.

In the past, conventional economic wisdom was that low interest rates encouraged spending and discouraged saving. People wanting returns on their money had to usefully invest it (take risk) or spend it (credit is cheap) which grew the economy.

However, if large chunks of the population are already living hand to mouth and utilising credit for larger purchases, without having savings (it’s been decades since there’s been any point in having a savings account with rates lower than inflation) then raising interest rates causes as many problems as it solves, because saving may now become desirable, but not viable, as the money that (before our switch to consumer credit) may have gone into a savings account, instead has to be used to meet the increased cost of mortgages/credit cards/loans. From a household perspective, raised interest rates are now in themselves inflationary.

We are not in a consumer boom, we’ve privatised the essentials (housing, energy, transport) and it is there that most of the inflation lies (food and automobiles too) and I have not yet heard a convincing argument from any economist or politician of any stripe as to how we extricate ourselves from this US led mess of our own making.

The only route out that I can see is effectively trickle up economics, but given our current political mindset, it’s safe to say that we’ve got decades of feckless politicians tinkering around the edges trying to prevent us trying this before we eventually, grudgingly, accept the inevitable.

Totally agree.

Savers, often the retired, getting a paltry extra x% increase in interest from building societies, but they’ve been used to those rates for 14 years. Doesn’t balance the damage of higher rates to those with variable mortgage rates for generally younger households up against it financially on all fronts. Not to mention higher rates on credit cards and overdrafts for the poorest who can’t pay off balances.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Captain hindsight comes up with the obvious answer very early doors, but not considered by Johnson and will probably not create a windfall tax even though the energy companies have 'more money than they know what to do with
Meanwhile millions will fall into real fuel poverty and struggle to feed their children or heat their home.
This is a rather sick country we are living in.

 

[bluenitsuj]

Captain hindsight comes up with the obvious answer very early doors, but not considered by Johnson and will probably not create a windfall tax even though the energy companies have 'more money than they know what to do with
Meanwhile millions will fall into real fuel poverty and struggle to feed their children or heat their home.
This is a rather sick country we are living in.

Spot on. This government have the power to help us all with subsidies and cutting some taxes to get through this but unfortunately they do not give a shit about joe public and not surprising given the current government are the biggest bunch of ***** ever

 

[cunning fergus]

I wondered where this thread had been diverted off the topic of the developing cost of living crisis. It appears that ever since this post from someone who seems to think 'We' are still in the EU,



was immediately proven to be complete and utter crap it seems to have descended into lots of posts of whataboutery. I believe the poster 'won', so maybe he needs to 'let go' and 'move on' and enjoy what he voted for

You need to stop singing…….from the EU Commission’s own webpage.

“Binding implementing measures to ensure uniform application of the VAT Directive can be found in the VAT Implementing Regulation (Council Regulation (EU) No 282/2011Search for available translations of the preceding linkEN•••). Those measures are directly applicable without transposition into national law.”

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/existing-eu-legal-framework_en

I am sure if you consult the Brexit thread the difference between EU Directives and EU Regulations has been explained, as it is on the EU website. So, for clarity, the VAT Regulation is directly applicable without transposition into national law.

What a game eh?

 

[cunning fergus]

Also from Wikipedia,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1891–1892

Both areas that have suffered many times from terrible famines, through drought and exacerbated by ineptitude under more than one form of political ideology.

Food security is one area the EU is concerned with and takes seriously, agricultural policy for all it's failings does take this into account and trys to maintain the ability of Europe to feed itself. EU countries are vital for UK food security, we have less food security now as non members, as any pressure affecting supply could see the EU restricting exports to non EU states.

It really is not as simple as you.

Hmm, it would seem to me that if food security and reducing costs of living were to be taken seriously by the EU then they would be tearing up the Common Agricultural Policy, which sustains food prices at levels that would be subject to down ward pressure if supply was increased whether internally or externally (by reducing tariffs).

That’s not to mention the removal of those generous subsidies from EU taxpayers to EU landowners and farmers to NOT grow food.

What a game.

 

[cunning fergus]

Stalin & Mao were only communists as a route to get personal power which they then both greatly abused when they took power.

Personally, I think if Stalin and Mao were anything they were communists in tooth and claw.

Their commitment to communist principles like the collectivisation of farms is what led to catastrophic famines in China and Russia.

Blind commitment to a broken political ideology is what killed those 10s of millions of their own citizens.

 

[Baldseagull]

Hmm, it would seem to me that if food security and reducing costs of living were to be taken seriously by the EU then they would be tearing up the Common Agricultural Policy, which sustains food prices at levels that would be subject to down ward pressure if supply was increased whether internally or externally (by reducing tariffs).

That’s not to mention the removal of those generous subsidies from EU taxpayers to EU landowners and farmers to NOT grow food.

What a game.

Sending farms into bankruptcy is not good for food security, or encouraging changes in land use by decreasing the value of it as agricultural land.

 

[cunning fergus]

Sending farms into bankruptcy is not good for food security, or encouraging changes in land use by decreasing the value of it as agricultural land.

Oh sure, those “poor old farmers” will definitely go bust without subsidies………

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...-millions-eu-subsidies-go-richest-landowners/

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...iven-1m-farm-subsidies-horse-breeding-empire/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...h-recipients-nearly-ps7m-eu-subsidies-3062542

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ud-receives-225-000-in-state-grants-2f395wp65

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/mega-rich-scottish-landowners-raking-16483459

Even the most ardent EU supporting swivel eyed loon would recognise the inequities of the CAP, on both sides (i.e. it artificially creates higher prices for the consumer and nearly half the EU taxpayers contribution to the EU is for CAP) it’s why Blair tried to reform by surrendering our rebate but failed.

Farms into bankruptcy………what a laugh you are!

 

[Baldseagull]

Oh sure, those “poor old farmers” will definitely go bust without subsidies………

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...-millions-eu-subsidies-go-richest-landowners/

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...iven-1m-farm-subsidies-horse-breeding-empire/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...h-recipients-nearly-ps7m-eu-subsidies-3062542

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ud-receives-225-000-in-state-grants-2f395wp65

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/mega-rich-scottish-landowners-raking-16483459

Even the most ardent EU supporting swivel eyed loon would recognise the inequities of the CAP, on both sides (i.e. it artificially creates higher prices for the consumer and nearly half the EU taxpayers contribution to the EU is for CAP) it’s why Blair tried to reform by surrendering our rebate but failed.

Farms into bankruptcy………what a laugh you are!

I had already admitted it has its failings, but it is not a black and white issue. But back on topic, with imports from the EU now more expensive as a third country, and our reliance on the EU to feed the nation, would you be capable of admitting that the cost of living crisis is exacerbated by Brexit?

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Oh sure, those “poor old farmers” will definitely go bust without subsidies………

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...-millions-eu-subsidies-go-richest-landowners/

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...iven-1m-farm-subsidies-horse-breeding-empire/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...h-recipients-nearly-ps7m-eu-subsidies-3062542

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...ud-receives-225-000-in-state-grants-2f395wp65

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/mega-rich-scottish-landowners-raking-16483459

Even the most ardent EU supporting swivel eyed loon would recognise the inequities of the CAP, on both sides (i.e. it artificially creates higher prices for the consumer and nearly half the EU taxpayers contribution to the EU is for CAP) it’s why Blair tried to reform by surrendering our rebate but failed.

Farms into bankruptcy………what a laugh you are!

Try watching last night's Spotlight South West when they run a piece on a Devon Farmer about the Australian so called deal regarding beef.
Our farmers don't stand a chance not to mention the poor quality they are allowed to export to us.
They likened it to as one sided as the ashes tests.
Under the EU it was fairer and much more high quality produce.

 

[southstandandy]

I had already admitted it has its failings, but it is not a black and white issue. But back on topic, with imports from the EU now more expensive as a third country, and our reliance on the EU to feed the nation, would you be capable of admitting that the cost of living crisis is exacerbated by Brexit?

Yes it obviously is. But it's the poor who will really be affected by higher prices rather than middle/high earners like myself. I even spend 10hours of voluntary time a week helping with my wife at a local food bank and its incredible the number who now need basic day to day provisions. Not solely down to Brexit as there are many other factors, but with everything else happening over the last couple of years we certainly could have done without the B word during the current time.

Anyone who has the time or can afford a small sum can help us at the Trussell Trust or any other local scheme you know of. Every bit of time, money or food donations are very welcome.

 

[cunning fergus]

Try watching last night's Spotlight South West when they run a piece on a Devon Farmer about the Australian so called deal regarding beef.
Our farmers don't stand a chance not to mention the poor quality they are allowed to export to us.
They likened it to as one sided as the ashes tests.
Under the EU it was fairer and much more high quality produce.

Removing subsidies is like reducing welfare, it’s not going to be popular with those who receive it.

Remaining in a trade bloc that actively discourages competitive imports (that could benefits its consumers) with excessive tariffs to protect itself from open and functioning markets is doomed to fail. Consumers paying artificially high prices and whilst also paying into the system that keeps prices high is not fair.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/prepare-farm-business-brexit

Free of the EU constraints like CAP U.K. politicians can either take the path of least resistance and continue in a similar vein or take bold steps to reform its markets and industries. Weaning industries off subsidies can be done if the will is there.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think someone needs to go out and get laid.

 

[Baldseagull]

Removing subsidies is like reducing welfare, it’s not going to be popular with those who receive it.

Remaining in a trade bloc that actively discourages competitive imports (that could benefits its consumers) with excessive tariffs to protect itself from open and functioning markets is doomed to fail. Consumers paying artificially high prices and whilst also paying into the system that keeps prices high is not fair.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/prepare-farm-business-brexit

Free of the EU constraints like CAP U.K. politicians can either take the path of least resistance and continue in a similar vein or take bold steps to reform its markets and industries. Weaning industries off subsidies can be done if the will is there.

So, a British farmer that rightly has to comply with certain regulations on animal welfare, feedstuffs, pesticides, labour, health and safety, traceability etc. should have to compete on price without tariff, on imports that may have no regard for some or any of those regulations, and may be subsidised to an even greater degree than EU agriculture, as US produce is?
The result is you either have to increase subsidy to your own agricultural sector, or just abandon any notion of food security and rely on imports and lose all agricultural expertise and animal husbandry from your nations skill set. Stop pretending you have a clue about this.

 

[cunning fergus]

So, a British farmer that rightly has to comply with certain regulations on animal welfare, feedstuffs, pesticides, labour, health and safety, traceability etc. should have to compete on price without tariff, on imports that may have no regard for some or any of those regulations, and may be subsidised to an even greater degree than EU agriculture, as US produce is?
The result is you either have to increase subsidy to your own agricultural sector, or just abandon any notion of food security and rely on imports and lose all agricultural expertise and animal husbandry from your nations skill set. Stop pretending you have a clue about this.

Deary me, calm down Gilesy, earlier you said the CAP has failings so any industry that is so reliant on Government subsidies in the way the Agriculture does in the EU and by extension the U.K. must need major reform.

Exiting the CAP is an opportunity to do that, and the first step to that should be looking at which landowners, like the Makhtoums have been raking in hard pressed taxpayers money……..there will be no cost of living crises for them.

 

[cunning fergus]

I think someone needs to go out and get laid.

Too right, with over 52,000 posts on here someone is evidently spending way too much time online, you really need to get out more.