[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[beorhthelm]

My first priority is to get to the truth. Then, based upon that, I will orientate my life accordingly. I would be OK with that. Having looked at everything, it is clear that Jesus did exist, and that he had disciples, and that he was crucified, and that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead on the third day. Sceptics and believers alike accept these things. That leaves us with 2 options. Either he did indeed rise from the dead, or the disciples experienced a group hallucination, which would be like having a group dream.

there is of course another option, the resurrection didnt happen and the story was made up. no group hallucination needed, just someones imagination. can never understand why people believe story with no contempoary account, none of the gospels are of someone actually living along side Jesus at the time. for a supposedly important person, no one who met him at the time thought to record their account.

 

[kuzushi]

Which is why what you have said is wrong. Both John and Jesus said you could find salvation by something that was unrelated to believing in the resurrection.

You're not understanding. I said it was the one thing you had to believe to be saved. What else do you have to believe?

 

[Blues Guitarist]

As a light hearted aside … I’m on holiday at the moment and visited a fine Italian cathedral this morning where they had a museum of religious paintings and models depicting biblical scenes. One that was repeated several times was shepherds and wise men worshipping the baby Jesus in a stable. This scene has become part of Christian lore, but never happened and is not in the bible. The fact that this false scene is painted again and again, and is acted out by kids in millions of churches every Christmas, but has no basis in fact (or even the bible), shows how easy it is for us to believe stuff that isn’t true.

 

[kuzushi]

I do not think it is all pure fiction no, but I do think as I and so many others, not just on this thread but all around the world billions of people, do not believe it is all true. It is a fact the scriptures have been altered, twisted, dropped and things input for embellishment reasons one can only assume.

Leaving aside whether or not parts of the Bible have been altered, twisted, dropped, or added, please tell me which specific bits of the following statement you agree or disagree with: Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and then within a matter of a few weeks his disciples started going out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

You're not understanding. I said it was the one thing you had to believe to be saved. What else do you have to believe?

You can be saved without the need to believe anything according to both John the Baptist and Jesus.

 

[Insel affe]

there is of course another option, the resurrection didnt happen and the story was made up.

Or another, it was simply borrowed and adapted to make the case and seem that Jesus was a legitimate deity.
Just a quick look on the tinernet tells me these all predate Jesus and all were resurrected

• Tammuz, the Spring God of Mesopotamia. ...
• Osiris, the Egyptian God of Death of Agriculture. ...
• Outwitting Death in Ancient India. ...
• Bodhidharma and His Single Shoe. ...
• Odin's Sacrifice (to Himself) ...
• Quetzalcóatl: Resurrection in Mesoamerica.

 

[kuzushi]

As a light hearted aside … I’m on holiday at the moment and visited a fine Italian cathedral this morning where they had a museum of religious paintings and models depicting biblical scenes. One that was repeated several times was shepherds and wise men worshipping the baby Jesus in a stable. This scene has become part of Christian lore, but never happened and is not in the bible. The fact that this false scene is painted again and again, and is acted out by kids in millions of churches every Christmas, but has no basis in fact (or even the bible), shows how easy it is for us to believe stuff that isn’t true.

I think it is in the Bible. Let me check.

 

[kuzushi]

As a light hearted aside … I’m on holiday at the moment and visited a fine Italian cathedral this morning where they had a museum of religious paintings and models depicting biblical scenes. One that was repeated several times was shepherds and wise men worshipping the baby Jesus in a stable. This scene has become part of Christian lore, but never happened and is not in the bible. The fact that this false scene is painted again and again, and is acted out by kids in millions of churches every Christmas, but has no basis in fact (or even the bible), shows how easy it is for us to believe stuff that isn’t true.

I think it is in the Bible. Let me check.
Edit: yes, just checked, the shepherds are in Luke chapter 2

 

[Originunknown]

Is it fiction that Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and that his disciples then went out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead. Is all that accepted or rejected by the majority of scholars, simple question, and think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

Stories of what happened to people many years ago are just that. Resurrection? Please. My world view is shaped by engineering, physics and latterly quantum mechanics with undergrad and postgrad qualifications so certainly no danger of stupidity here.
I find it very sad that people seek meaning and purpose from fiction, although some of the values Christianity holds are commendable as a way to live one's life.

 

[Insel affe]

Leaving aside whether or not parts of the Bible have been altered, twisted, dropped, or added, please tell me which specific bits of the following statement you agree or disagree with:

Jesus lived,

More than likely, yes there was a middle eastern Jewish young man called Jesus.

had disciples.

People who followed him around, yeah possibly, I was not there, so can't categorically say yes.

preached about the kingdom of God,

Again I was not there, but it is possible he preached about a god.

predicted his own death by crucifixion.

We have no proof what so ever, it is hearsay at best, I or you were not there, so neither of us can categorically say he did.
You can believe he did, I do not know, and neither do you for SURE.

was crucified.

Yeah he probably was, that was a common ending back then for a rebel or thorn in the Romans side.

and then within a matter of a few weeks his disciples started going out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead.

No they did not, a few people on here have told you several times, this "story" was written long after his death.
You choose not to believe that, you and I again have NO PROOF THIS HAPPENED - NONE

 

[kuzushi]

Stories of what happened to people many years ago are just that. Resurrection? Please. My world view is shaped by engineering, physics and latterly quantum mechanics with undergrad and postgrad qualifications so certainly no danger of stupidity here.
I find it very sad that people seek meaning and purpose from fiction, although some of the values Christianity holds are commendable as a way to live one's life.

You are making yourself look a bit silly. I warned you not to do that.

My question was:
Is it fiction that Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and that his disciples then went out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead. Is all that accepted or rejected by the majority of scholars, simple question, and think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

You haven't actually answered the question, but you did say "Resurrection? Please," and you are talking about engineering and physics and whatnot for some reason. I think you need to brush up your basic reading comprehension skills.

 

[Originunknown]

You are making yourself look a bit silly. I warned you not to do that.

My question was:
Is it fiction that Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and that his disciples then went out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead. Is all that accepted or rejected by the majority of scholars, simple question, and think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

You haven't actually answered the question, but you did say "Resurrection? Please," and you are talking about engineering and physics and whatnot for some reason. I think you need to brush up your basic reading comprehension skills.

If you genuinely believe in resurrection then I can't help you. You're only a few degrees removed from Scientology in my eyes.

And to add, physics and quantum mechanics are fundamental in understanding how our whole universe works on a granular level, however you are clearly not a man of science so we'll leave it there.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

I think it is in the Bible. Let me check.
Edit: yes, just checked, the shepherds are in Luke chapter 2

Where do you find the shepherds and the wise men together?

 

[kuzushi]

Where do you find the shepherds and the wise men together?

Together, possibly not.
They are in the Bible, the shepherds and the wise men, but not together as far as I recall.

 

[beorhthelm]

As a light hearted aside … I’m on holiday at the moment and visited a fine Italian cathedral this morning where they had a museum of religious paintings and models depicting biblical scenes. One that was repeated several times was shepherds and wise men worshipping the baby Jesus in a stable. This scene has become part of Christian lore, but never happened and is not in the bible. The fact that this false scene is painted again and again, and is acted out by kids in millions of churches every Christmas, but has no basis in fact (or even the bible), shows how easy it is for us to believe stuff that isn’t true.

its false. in one there are shepards at or around the birth. in another there are wisemen. two gospels dont mention it.

 

[kuzushi]

If you genuinely believe in resurrection then I can't help you. You're only a few degrees removed from Scientology in my eyes.

And to add, physics and quantum mechanics are fundamental in understanding how our whole universe works on a granular level, however you are clearly not a man of science so we'll leave it there.

Ooof, can no one answer a simple question? My question was whether or not the disciples went out proclaiming that Jesus had risen from the dead.

 

[kuzushi]

its false. in one there are shepards at or around the birth. in another there are wisemen. two gospels dont mention it.

You say that two gospels don't mention it as if you're making a point. They wouldn't exactly mention it since they start with Jesus as an adult.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Ooof, can no one answer a simple question? My question was whether or not the disciples went out proclaiming that Jesus had risen from the dead.

According to Mark’s gospel they did not.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

You say that two gospels don't mention it as if you're making a point. They wouldn't exactly mention it since they start with Jesus as an adult.

Duh! Jesus is the son of god born to a virgin and two gospel writers didn’t think that worthy of a mention?! Seriously?

 

[Insel affe]

Ooof, can no one answer a simple question? My question was whether or not the disciples went out proclaiming that Jesus had risen from the dead.

Ooof......

Can you not understand - NO ONE CAN FECKIN PROVE IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER NOT YOU, NOT SOME SCRIPTURES RE WRITTEN COUNTLESS TIMES.