[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[kuzushi]

I understand that after my death, that's it for me, there is no more.

That's an assumption that does not tally with what I've seen and heard in life.
I can tell you an anecdote about my grandmother at some point if you like.

If I could find any evidence that Jesus was really the son of god, that would be amazing - I could get to go to heaven, my family (those that haven't already gone to hell through no fault of their own) could go to heaven and we could be together - that would be amazing - where do I sign? I'd love that to be true. I'd be more than happy to change my path, I couldn't change fast enough.

Hopefully you are aware now of how to sign up if you do come to realise the truth of what I've been saying.

But I can't find any evidence that stands up to a modicum of scrutiny.

I think I've presented evidence that stands up to more than a modicum of scrutiny. I'm not saying that I'd expect it to convince everyone, but it is at least worthy of consideration, and the fact that there are people, who presumably have functioning brains, bothering to engage in this discussion at all bears that out. Take the shroud. This has been sufficient to convert scientists to the faith. There's your modicum of scrutiny for you: scientists have studied the shroud and as a result decided to devote the rest of their lives to Jesus. Google Peter Schumacher, VP-8 image analyzer.

Ok. You may have already said what denomination you are, but I missed it. You're not JW are you?

No.

The JW cult is particularly unfair, meaning that when people realise that their faith is false, they can't leave, because if they do, they are ostracised and can't see their own family any more.

It was more the reverse in my case. My family frankly seemed to despise me for choosing to follow Jesus. Tried to stop me from going to church, hated it when I got baptised, called me names. I imagine they would have been delighted had I renounced my faith.

I can go with your first points. It is not, however, clear that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. Jesus prophesied that he would and his disciples believed him, although they may not have known whether it would be in physical form or more spiritually, and when he hadn't risen, it wouldn't be surprising if they moved him to a secret location in order to push the new religion that they believed in. The disciples had a lot to gain from lying.

Well, it led to them being crucified themselves in some cases, if that is what you mean by having a lot to gain.

They have been immortalised, we are still talking about them now. Their actions meant they could claim to be important people, the disciples of the son of god. If they had left Jesus dead in his tomb and the new religion had died, that would have been the end of everything they believed in and stood for and worked for.

I think they were poised to melt away and slink off back to their old lives until Jesus popped up again. They were hiding away, afraid of the Jews and Romans, not in the sort of state of mind to go around nicking bodies and exposing themselves to arrest and potential execution for proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus when they would have known it wasn't even true.

No they don't. Sceptics, as I've shown above, do not imagine that the disciples believed Jesus had been resurrected.

Yes they do. I'm not saying they all do, but Bart Ehrman, who is probably the leading sceptic among New Testament scholars does.





Got to go somewhere now. I'll address the remaining points later:

If Jesus did rise from the dead, why didn't he go and see the jewish leaders and say hi? What was the point in rising from the dead if he wasn't going to show himself to everyone?




No. They lied.



Why would they add a piece of cloth to an insignificant the edge of the material? And it's also a weird coincidence that the repair work was done at exactly the time that evidence predicted would have been when the whole thing was faked. And even if you are correct - why don't they just carbon date a bit of the cloth that's original, thus proving the date.


The cloth was damaged in a fire - but doesn't the WAXS method of dating require that the cloth was kept between 20 and 22 degrees C? That's tricky if it was in a fire. And not that the carbon dating shows that the piece was a lot older than the repairs done after 1532.




But you think it was made by being wrapped around Jesus's dead body don't you? Or do you think it was more miracluous than that?

I understand that after my death, that's it for me, there is no more. If I could find any evidence that Jesus was really the son of god, that would be amazing - I could get to go to heaven, my family (those that haven't already gone to hell through no fault of their own) could go to heaven and we could be together - that would be amazing - where do I sign? I'd love that to be true. I'd be more than happy to change my path, I couldn't change fast enough.

But I can't find any evidence that stands up to a modicum of scrutiny.




Ok. You may have already said what denomination you are, but I missed it. You're not JW are you? The JW cult is particularly unfair, meaning that when people realise that their faith is false, they can't leave, because if they do, they are ostracised and can't see their own family any more.



I can go with your first points. It is not, however, clear that his disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead. Jesus prophesied that he would and his disciples believed him, although they may not have known whether it would be in physical form or more spiritually, and when he hadn't risen, it wouldn't be surprising if they moved him to a secret location in order to push the new religion that they believed in. The disciples had a lot to gain from lying. They have been immortalised, we are still talking about them now. Their actions meant they could claim to be important people, the disciples of the son of god. If they had left Jesus dead in his tomb and the new religion had died, that would have been the end of everything they believed in and stood for and worked for.



No they don't. Sceptics, as I've shown above, do not imagine that the disciples believed Jesus had been resurrected.

If Jesus did rise from the dead, why didn't he go and see the jewish leaders and say hi? What was the point in rising from the dead if he wasn't going to show himself to everyone?




No. They lied.



Why would they add a piece of cloth to an insignificant the edge of the material? And it's also a weird coincidence that the repair work was done at exactly the time that evidence predicted would have been when the whole thing was faked. And even if you are correct - why don't they just carbon date a bit of the cloth that's original, thus proving the date.


The cloth was damaged in a fire - but doesn't the WAXS method of dating require that the cloth was kept between 20 and 22 degrees C? That's tricky if it was in a fire. And not that the carbon dating shows that the piece was a lot older than the repairs done after 1532.




But you think it was made by being wrapped around Jesus's dead body don't you? Or do you think it was more miracluous than that?

 

[Triggaaar]

That's an assumption that does not tally with what I've seen and heard in life.

It tallies with what I've seen.

I can tell you an anecdote about my grandmother at some point if you like.

If it requiries any belief, I will find it implausible, and put it down to your imagination/dreams etc.

Hopefully you are aware now of how to sign up if you do come to realise the truth of what I've been saying.

I'm over 50, I went to a C of E school, I attended Church, I have religious ancestors - I've always know how to sign up. But as I've said, it's not believable.

I think I've presented evidence that stands up to more than a modicum of scrutiny. I'm not saying that I'd expect it to convince everyone, but it is at least worthy of consideration, and the fact that there are people, who presumably have functioning brains, bothering to engage in this discussion at all bears that out.

Far from convincing everyone, I don't think you're convincing anyone. People here are engaging in the discussion because they either find interesting or entertaining etc, not because they find it believable.

Take the shroud. This has been sufficient to convert scientists to the faith.

Nah. Scientist have dated the shroud to the 13th century, so that's pretty poor evidence that Jesus was the son of god. Many people turn to faith for a variety of reasons - maybe they've sinned more than their own morals can stand, and they turn to faith to atone. If some of those had anything to do with the shroud, they can then claim that it was evidence that made them change their path.

It was more the reverse in my case. My family frankly seemed to despise me for choosing to follow Jesus. Tried to stop me from going to church, hated it when I got baptised, called me names. I imagine they would have been delighted had I renounced my faith.

That is obviously quite a sad tale. If my children were to follow Jesus, that would be fine with me. We brought them up as Christians for their early years, as it was easier than telling them the truth. They've gone to faith schools their whole lives, but they started to question what they were being taught, and now they're atheists.

Well, it led to them being crucified themselves in some cases, if that is what you mean by having a lot to gain.

They were hiding away anyway, so that was a possible outcome regardless of what they said.

I think they were poised to melt away and slink off back to their old lives until Jesus popped up again.

That's a huge stretch, Jesus was only gone a couple of days, so they had no time to go back to their old lives.

Yes they do. I'm not saying they all do, but Bart Ehrman, who is probably the leading sceptic among New Testament scholars does.

We don't.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Well if it was true, they would have celebrated and followed their messiah. Their bible had prophesied the coming of their messiah - if Jesus the Jew had died, and then been resurrected, that would have been proof that he was their messiah.

Note that the Jewish messiah (a man) and Jesus aka god are two totally different things. Messiah is the Hebrew for the Greek word Christ, which means the anointed one, a term often applied to kings or religious leaders. It doesn’t mean god or the son of god.

The Jews didn’t expect the messiah to be crucified. He was expected to lead the Jewish people to victory over their oppressors (the Romans). Instead, the Romans killed him.

 

[Originunknown]

Thread is pure fiction, where is the poster L Ron Hubbard has he chimed in yet

 

[kuzushi]

The Jews didn’t expect the messiah to be crucified. He was expected to lead the Jewish people to victory over their oppressors (the Romans). Instead, the Ronans killed him.

They didn't expect it because they didn't know their scriptures properly. I've already quoted two clear prophecies of the crucifixion from Isaiah and the Psalms, that talk about being pierced and dying for the sins of the people and then seeing life again.

 

[Originunknown]

God's not going to judge me because there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus.

Didn't realise it was one of  those cults

 

[Wrong-Direction]

I had an interesting chat with a jehovah witness last night, absolute fruitloop

 

[pastafarian]

They didn't expect it because they didn't know their scriptures properly. I've already quoted two clear prophecies of the crucifixion from Isaiah and the Psalms, that talk about being pierced and dying for the sins of the people and then seeing life again.

But what you posted isn’t proof of anything, you have chosen to believe they are prophecies of Jesus because it reinforces your worldview. Others truly believe something different. Some Jews for example believe Isiah refers to the whole nation of Israel, not Jesus. Others believe it refers to Moses and some others believe it refers to a Messiah who has not yet existed.

You can also find plenty of discussion that the passage you refer to in psalms has been poorly translated by Christians to re-enforce their prophecy belief.

Clearly, someone at some point has told you to “read this” expecting you wont apply any critical thought and will simply start drinking the Kool-Aid……….and you did.

 

[Jackthelad]

Jesus was Jewsih and claimed to be the messiah. Jews rejected his claim, and so Christianity branched off from Judaism. Christians now have to recognise that Jesus was the son of god, and Jews cannot recognise that, so you can't be both.

Sure, a Christian can claim that Christianity is just a continuation of Judaism, but Jews do not accept that. Christianity is what we call the faith that split from Judaism and it's just semantics to pretend that they're the same.

There are Jews that are Christian. I know many. There are even Jews that keep to The Jewish law but accept Jesus as the prophesied messiah in the Torah. It's anti-Semitic to
claim Jews are not Jews because they happen to follow different teaching.

Some in Israel do this to Ethiopian Jews/Christians and Messianic Jews, but it's racist and anti-semitic.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Jews believe that god is one entity, whereas Christians believe in the holy trinity..

Ask your average Christian to explain the holy trinity. Most of them claim to believe, but have no idea what the trinity is.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Jews believe that god is one entity, whereas Christians beilieve in the holy trinity. Christians believe that Jesus was the messiah, a human, and that he was also devine, but Jews believe humans cannot be devine, and that the messiah has not yet come.

Trinitarian Christians believe in the trinity, not all of them.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

They didn't expect it because they didn't know their scriptures properly. I've already quoted two clear prophecies of the crucifixion from Isaiah and the Psalms, that talk about being pierced and dying for the sins of the people and then seeing life again.

Your prophecies are both disputed by scholars. Many think that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish nation, not Jesus. Some say the translation in Psalm 22 should be “like a lion my hands and feet”.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

If you want to know whether or not Christianity is true, look at the resurrection. This is the one thing you have to believe to be saved.

This statement is not true. In Mark chapter 1 John the Baptist says that if you repent of your sins and are baptised you will be saved. While in Matthew 25 Jesus says, be nice to people - that’s it.

 

[kuzushi]

Thread is pure fiction, where is the poster L Ron Hubbard has he chimed in yet

Is it fiction that Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and that his disciples then went out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead. Is all that accepted or rejected by the majority of scholars, simple question, and think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

 

[kuzushi]

This statement is not true. In Mark chapter 1 John the Baptist says that if you repent of your sins and are baptised you will be saved. While in Matthew 25 Jesus says, be nice to people - that’s it.

It is true. It's the one thing you have to believe. Repenting and being baptised is not believing.

 

[Insel affe]

think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

That is rich, coming from you.

 

[kuzushi]

That is rich, coming from you.

How have I been silly? Everything I say is true. If I'm not sure about a thing, I preface it with "I think..." if I am sure, I just say it, and if someone corrects me and I agree that they are right, I accept it. The guy I was addressing had just stated that Christianity is all pure fiction. He's wrong, isn't he?

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Is it fiction that Jesus lived, had disciples, preached about the kingdom of God, predicted his own death by crucifixion, was crucified, and that his disciples then went out proclaiming that he had risen from the dead. Is all that accepted or rejected by the majority of scholars, simple question, and think carefully before you answer if you don't want to look silly.

If Jesus was resurrected, why did no-one write about it at the time? Not his followers, not Jewish leaders, not Roman authorities or historians. No-one.

After the crucifixion graves opened and zombies wandered around Jerusalem, but no-one thought that worthy of comment either.

The gospels were written much later. They were written after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple cult. Some say that the Jesus cult was a replacement for the Temple cult.

The gospels were written after many years had passed, a period of time during which Jesus had forecast the end of times and the coming of the kingdom of god, which didn’t happen. Some say that whatever historical truth there was about Jesus was altered to fit the fact that this prophecy had been false.

So, whatever truth there might be in the biblical story of Jesus, there is also plenty of fiction, as I pointed out before regarding the very significant differences between the gospels.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

It is true. It's the one thing you have to believe. Repenting and being baptised is not believing.

Which is why what you have said is wrong. Both John and Jesus said you could find salvation by something that was unrelated to believing in the resurrection.

 

[Insel affe]

How have I been silly? Everything I say is true.

It is not though is it, because you can't prove vast swathes in what you have said or what you believe.

If I'm not sure about a thing, I preface it with "I think..." if I am sure, I just say it, and if someone corrects me and I agree that they are right, I accept it. The guy I was addressing had just stated that Christianity is all pure fiction. He's wrong, isn't he?

I do not think it is all pure fiction no, but I do think as I and so many others, not just on this thread but all around the world billions of people, do not believe it is all true. It is a fact the scriptures have been altered, twisted, dropped and things input for embellishment reasons one can only assume.
I do believe a character called Jesus existed, I do not believe in the Virgin Mary (I am sure this story is stolen from another prophet) or that he was or is the son of a god, or do I believe he came back from the dead (I am sure this story is stolen from another prophet, again) He defiantly did not die on the cross for my sins, he died on the cross, because he was a very naughty boy and got caught.