[Misc] Christians seem to be really good people

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Didn’t think they were sound bites, legitimate questions maybe?

My soundbites? I think you invest too much value in them.

My experience with questions is that they are 'legitimate' only in context. If the context has a well-established framework then, fine. I can ask, for example, how can aspirin have apparent selectivity for the production one versus another of two products (thromboxane A2 and prostacyclin) of the same enzyme (cyclo-oxygenase)? I can then go on to explain how, based on an accumulation of clever experiments and persuasive data, this comes about.

But I can't ask why it is that black people are obviously more criminal that white (see prison population) because the context is false and racist. And yet it is plausible and fully accepted by lots of people (particularly racists).

Likewise I can ask what god's purpose was when he created the Earth. And I find it more than slightly irritating when people spend vast amounts of time discussing this.

Why is it that women are inferior to men? Yes, I can see a minority of folk who post on NSC quite willing and able to explain this for me.

 

[kuzushi]

f*** off you crank

I think the level of discussion on this thread is top notch.

 

[Insel affe]

I said I wouldn’t indulge in this thread, but don’t conflate the ‘Church’ with Jesus.
The Church consists of humans, some of whom use the label of Christianity for their own purposes.

There is a reason Jesus says, the Judgement Day will sort the sheep from the goats. In the Middle East sheep aren’t fluffy and white, they do look similar to goats.
Church leaders generally do a good job, kicking out the goats. Like most things, you never hear about the good churches, but newspapers and media love to publicise the bad ones.
That’s human nature. Would you read a paper that only consists of good news?

There is no excuse for abuse, and any leader who covers it up to keep their position is as bad.
Remember, Jesus, used his greatest condemnation for the Pharisees. There are still plenty of those today.
Don’t condemn all Christians for the acts of the evil.

I do not hate Christians, or the church, I can see the good it does do people, the togetherness, the love and compassion shared.
One cannot really fault the basic guidelines, as they should be a given in everyday life.
I my angst is the preaching, that they are the one true path, that is not true, their god is no better than say Freyja, Morrigan, Guanyin, the list goes on and on.
My grandfather studied theology @ Oxford, then went to Burma as a priest, then in India during the war in the Army before settling here Locally.
I never met him, by all accounts he was a worldly good man, I would loved to have spoken to him about religion.
I lived with my gran in a house provided by the church in Portslade while I was young, until she became ill, I spent a lot time in the church next door with her and I quickly learnt the good it can do, but also the peoples needs, which were complex including loneliness, a sense of dutifulness, basically it was people who needed help, who did not have the strength alone. It was not a whip cracking church like some I have been too like the father in laws in America, that was horrible, Jebus would be spinning in his grave, percentages of your wages should not be requested in any church.
A long time ago me, and my first girlfriend contemplated marriage, she was of Polish decent and a Catholic, she wanted to get married in the same church by the priest that confirmed her, I said fine, we met the Priest and had a chat, he asked me what faith I was, I told him I was CofE, he then asked if I would convert (this was about 1989) Convert, sorry no, I can't do that, my grandfather was a High Anglican Priest and my Gran is still alive.
After the meeting, he kept my girlfriend back while I waited outside, and apart from touching her bottom several times, he told her he could not marry her at the church, and he thought I was evil, and to not go through with it.
Was there any need for that, we stayed together for about 9 years after that, and drifted apart.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Was thinking of posting around about Page 2, felt I'd rather not as thread likely to be destined for the Bin Fest.

Basics for me, as an atheist, is there is good and bad in all groups. From my first hand experience I've seen a great deal of hypocrisy from some people claiming to be Christian, albeit only on a Sunday morning.

Most of us have strong feelings of being fair, tolerant and compassionate, be that atheist or Christian, live and let live but always remember we are judged far more by our actions than our words. #BeKind

 

[happypig]

Not it hasn't
No it isn't
Who cares?

Assembling falsehoods in order to allow speculation on another falsehood is not a good look.

The universe is infinite. We are but a tiny invisible spec in it. We have no idea what the whole looks like, or whether there is life elsewhere.
The universe was not designed. The hand of god is not in it. That's childish nonsense.
What people believe is neither here nor there and not fit for discussion. I believe you are deluded. All you can do in a belief contest is to deny my belief. Boring.

Brian Cox (the telly physics, things-can-only-get-better, clever bloke) reckons we are probably alone in the galaxy and, possibly, the entire universe (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/brian-cox-says-doesnt-believe-26388811).
Some of us have realised that our entire evolution (from single celled organisms to Julio's wonder goal) is a series of random lucky events. As our knowledge increases the attribution of events to deities declines.

Finally, to paraphrase Stephen Fry (another feller far cleverer than I) "There are thousands of gods, Christians/Jews/Muslims deny the existence of all but one of them. I merely deny one more than them"

 

[kuzushi]

Was thinking of posting around about Page 2, felt I'd rather not as thread likely to be destined for the Bin Fest.































































































































































































































































Basics for me, as an atheist, is there is good and bad in all groups. From my first hand

Was thinking of posting around about Page 2, felt I'd rather not as thread likely to be destined for the Bin Fest.

Basics for me, as an atheist, is there is good and bad in all groups. From my first hand experience I've seen a great deal of hypocrisy from some people claiming to be Christian, albeit only on a Sunday morning.

Most of us have strong feelings of being fair, tolerant and compassionate, be that atheist or Christian, live and let live but always remember we are judged far more by our actions than our words. #BeKind

I agree that most people have a sense of fairness etc. How's that work if we have just evolved and there is no God? Wouldn't there be a reproductive advantage in being as ruthless and unscrupulous as possible, murdering rivals and behaving like psychopaths? But empathy and a sense of fairness and justice are built into most of us, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists. "They are a law unto themselves."

 

[Insel affe]

Wouldn't there be a reproductive advantage in being as ruthless and unscrupulous as possible, murdering rivals and behaving like psychopaths

You do realise you have just described several traits of Christian leaders over the years.

 

[kuzushi]

You do realise you have just described several traits of Christian leaders over the years.

Murdering rivals? Wow. They sound like bad Christian leaders.

 

[portlock seagull]

f*** off you crank

You allude to having unresolved issues. It’s not me. Hope you get sorted and find some peace. Try not to hate the rest of the world because of, and anyone that crosses your path with a different point of view and, quite reasonably, doesn’t know your back story.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I do not hate Christians, or the church, I can see the good it does do people, the togetherness, the love and compassion shared.
One cannot really fault the basic guidelines, as they should be a given in everyday life.
I my angst is the preaching, that they are the one true path, that is not true, their god is no better than say Freyja, Morrigan, Guanyin, the list goes on and on.
My grandfather studied theology @ Oxford, then went to Burma as a priest, then in India during the war in the Army before settling here Locally.
I never met him, by all accounts he was a worldly good man, I would loved to have spoken to him about religion.
I lived with my gran in a house provided by the church in Portslade while I was young, until she became ill, I spent a lot time in the church next door with her and I quickly learnt the good it can do, but also the peoples needs, which were complex including loneliness, a sense of dutifulness, basically it was people who needed help, who did not have the strength alone. It was not a whip cracking church like some I have been too like the father in laws in America, that was horrible, Jebus would be spinning in his grave, percentages of your wages should not be requested in any church.
A long time ago me, and my first girlfriend contemplated marriage, she was of Polish decent and a Catholic, she wanted to get married in the same church by the priest that confirmed her, I said fine, we met the Priest and had a chat, he asked me what faith I was, I told him I was CofE, he then asked if I would convert (this was about 1989) Convert, sorry no, I can't do that, my grandfather was a High Anglican Priest and my Gran is still alive.
After the meeting, he kept my girlfriend back while I waited outside, and apart from touching her bottom several times, he told her he could not marry her at the church, and he thought I was evil, and to not go through with it.
Was there any need for that, we stayed together for about 9 years after that, and drifted apart.

I agree completely and to my mind, that priest was an example of using man made rules, exactly like the Pharisees did.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

I agree that most people have a sense of fairness etc. How's that work if we have just evolved and there is no God? Wouldn't there be a reproductive advantage in being as ruthless and unscrupulous as possible, murdering rivals and behaving like psychopaths? But empathy and a sense of fairness and justice are built into most of us, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists. "They are a law unto themselves."

The success of the human species is due to our ability to specialise and work collectively in groups. Nothing has ever been achieved by individuals working alone in spite of what Hollywood and the American right might suggest. The ability to work with others would give you a reproductive advantage. Those groups may be in conflict over resources at times, hence wars, but Christianity doesn’t seem to have ever had any desire to discourage those.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I agree that most people have a sense of fairness etc. How's that work if we have just evolved and there is no God? Wouldn't there be a reproductive advantage in being as ruthless and unscrupulous as possible, murdering rivals and behaving like psychopaths? But empathy and a sense of fairness and justice are built into most of us, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists. "They are a law unto themselves."

But in most comments I read it seems to me that people are saying being Christian is being "better", more human and / or "above" this, I'd argue there are many instances where this isn't the case and there are many atheists who show extraordinary human values without the need to banner this under a "god".

 

[Bold Seagull]

Brian Cox (the telly physics, things-can-only-get-better, clever bloke) reckons we are probably alone in the galaxy and, possibly, the entire universe (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/brian-cox-says-doesnt-believe-26388811).
Some of us have realised that our entire evolution (from single celled organisms to Julio's wonder goal) is a series of random lucky events. As our knowledge increases the attribution of events to deities declines.

Finally, to paraphrase Stephen Fry (another feller far cleverer than I) "There are thousands of gods, Christians/Jews/Muslims deny the existence of all but one of them. I merely deny one more than them"

There could be circumstances for many rare or unique things in the galaxy that only a certain set of lucky random events and circumstances set in motion, we just happen to be one of them. At the end of the day, despite all our science, knowledge and understanding, we still don't really know what 95% of the universe is, how it's interacting, what energy is at work to make certain things happen.

There is a joy to not knowing either, and there is great celebration when we discover something to prove previous theories wrong. Science is never fixed or intransigent, and unfortunately that is why it can be an easy target for the likes of the climate denial lobby.

 

[Jackthelad]

Christianity biggest positive has always been Jesus. Whether you deny his existence or not. Most people left or right, Muslim or Hindu atheist or agnostic like his personality, how friendly he was to the most attacked in society and loving. Thats not a bad person to try emulate. Christians are mixed bag, like any community. I know of atheists that go to church because they like community aspect of some churches.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

Even the simplest possible organism is more complex than say a mobile phone. How can such a complex thing have popped into existence spontaneously?

You doubt that life could have evolved spontaneously, yet you believe in the existence of an invisible super being. Why don’t you apply the same level of incredulity to the existence of god?

 

[Insel affe]

I'm not saying that the evidence is enough to be compelling to everyone, I can accept someone being sceptical,

That is mighty fine of you, thank you.

but when people get abusive, and start resorting to ridicule, it just looks like they are failing to grasp to gravity of what we're dealing with and the credibility of the evidence.

Or perhaps, it is you that are not grasping the fact their is no evidence at all, none, zip, feck all that God exists at all.

Question, do you
1: Believe in evolution and that dinosaurs roamed this plant long before man, and that we may have evolved from apes ?
2: Do you believe that the Christian God and all other Gods are false.
3: Following on from that do you believe that all the followers of "false" prophets and Gods, along with atheists will perish at the time of the reckoning ?

 

[Blues Guitarist]

For me, it's Jesus who points towards God.
If he didn't exist, someone would have had to be an absolute genius to invent him and his revolutionary teaching, and the disciples were pretty ordinary blokes, fishermen and whatnot. It's not just him in and of himself, but also the way he appeared, with prophecies in the Old Testament predicting so much about his life, and John the Baptist heralding his arrival, and St Paul coming afterwards. No other religious founder has this. For example, Muhammad just appeared and started preaching out of the blue. Same with Buddha. In the case of Jesus, John the Baptist comes first, announcing that the Messiah is about to appear. I don't think anyone else in ancient times has four biographies all written within a few decades of their life

Were it not for him, I'd be an agnostic.

The disciples didn’t write the gospels. They were written decades later by people who had never met Jesus, in a different language than that spoken by Jesus.

The New Testament does reference Old Testament prophesies. Many are taken out of context, and so are not a prophecy of what the New Testament claims. And some are lies, with the claimed prophecy not actually existing.

Jesus doesn’t have four biographies, he has dozens. But the church decided that only four were god’s word. And the four that were included in the New Testament are inconsistent and contradictory. Two gospels don’t bother to mention the Virgin birth, while Matthew and Luke tell two very different nativity stories. Compare and contrast the crucifixion/resurrection/post resurrection stories in the four gospels. If one is true, then the others are false. But it’s all god’s word?

 

[albionfan37]

Just don’t get em started on another religion they’ll have that lot burning downstairs before the sentence has finished leaving there mouth

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree that most people have a sense of fairness etc. How's that work if we have just evolved and there is no God? Wouldn't there be a reproductive advantage in being as ruthless and unscrupulous as possible, murdering rivals and behaving like psychopaths? But empathy and a sense of fairness and justice are built into most of us, regardless of whether we are believers or atheists. "They are a law unto themselves."

Excellent question.

There is value to being a ruthless manipulative rapist in very promitive society. I'm thinking when we had about as much brain power as a cat.

But as we evolved, unless we had the precise skill set to win leadership (in combat) and exert it through tyranny and reward, or cunning enough to become a lieutenant of the apex tyrant, we were part of the plebs.

Plebs can't survive by constantly raping women and killing men. They have to forge alliances and arrangements based on the concession of power and control. Eventually we end up with a society.

So there is a survival advantage to being the apex tyrant or one of his bastard gang, and also to being part of a community with empathy and collaboration. People skills.

What we have now varies from one part of the world to another, but it seems that collaboration is beginning to win. But we have to keep an eye on the apex tyrant bastards, because being a bastard, but clever and careful with it, is certainly a way to survive and breed.

Why we keep electing the bastards to be our government is a subject for another conversation.....

 

[birthofanorange]

I quite enjoyed Terry Christian on The Word, although I couldn't say whether he was a 'good person' or not. That said, he was/is a Remainer, so he certainly had his good points.