China After This Crisis

[Swansman]

It’d be nice if the CCP ruling elite were overthrown.

You cant overthrow a government that got a digital mass surveillance system, so it will never happen. The chance is gone.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

This article somehow made it on to my FB feed this morning....

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...-china-compensation-fee-henry-Jackson-society

Nice to see The UK gutter press wasting no time in using this virus to spread more xenophobia. As for telling China they owe us money.......

Yeah good luck with that.

Thankfully ignore anything from that side of the press that is printed...all scumbags.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Unfortunately, this isn't the first and it won't be the last Xenophobic thread about the Chinese.

You may (or may not) be surprised to know that we actually have quite a few fans reading this board that are either British born Chinese, or they are married into a Chinese family and have mixed race children.

Imagine what is like to know that your family is at risk from prejudice (or injury) when visiting Brighton, and it's your fellow supporters that are helping to propagate this anti China rhetoric.

If you're a mother/father writing some of this, then you should really take a step back and give your head a wobble.

Oh that's it then, I criticise a countries handling of a crisis and the fact that they are at the epicentre and this makes me a Xenophobe! hahaha you need to give your head a wobble mate. This isn't me being Xenophobic or racist, it's simply being very pissed off that our health and financial wellbeing is being affected by something I personally think was preventable and I'd bet money on it, most scientists would agree.

Don't pull the race and xenophobic card unless it's genuinely required, because otherwise, it makes you look quite daft. Why cant we just debate normally rather than turn to mud slinging on here! Something NSC is poor at imo.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Oh that's it then, I criticise a countries handling of a crisis and the fact that they are at the epicentre and this makes me a Xenophobe! hahaha you need to give your head a wobble mate. This isn't me being Xenophobic or racist, it's simply being very pissed off that our health and financial wellbeing is being affected by something I personally think was preventable and I'd bet money on it, most scientists would agree.

Don't pull the race and xenophobic card unless it's genuinely required, because otherwise, it makes you look quite daft. Why cant we just debate normally rather than turn to mud slinging on here! Something NSC is poor at imo.

What are your views on countries like India claiming compensation from the UK, it’s best we don’t go down the route of claiming damages from other countries....

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Because you're ranting. Nobody knows exactly how the virus crossed over to humans although it is believed to have crossed over from bats, which (according to a report in the Telegraph) are not sold at the Wuhan market. Yes, their hygiene standards are poor but then so are those in the US (why do you think they have to chlorinate their chicken).

You bang on about cover ups and lies but it seems the consensus was that that was at local level. Nationally, the Chinese government stepped up to the plate.

So, if you want to stop using iphones and anything else made in China then that's up to you. I think you will struggle to identify everything though as a hell of a lot of components are manufactured there before assembly.

Furthermore, there are plenty of other countries that have wet markets, are you going to boycott them as well?

I'm not ranting mate, just intrigued to see what others opinions are, it's clear we disagree though about China's handling of the crisis. They were warned, many times previously, that a pandemic of a virus could happen at any stage, but their desire to eat weird things overcame their common sense and this is where we are.

No, I don't think it was at local level, I seem to remember their Government making out like it was all controlled and everything was going to be ok, unless local to the source.

I'm not the sort to start delving into tiny details on Chinese components etc but I will avoid food, products blatantly made in China etc as much as I can. It'll be impossible to completely avoid it. I'm sure I change back once this all blows over, but currently, that's my feeling.

 

[Machiavelli]

They were indeed at local level, but you have to ask why. And the reason for that is that accountability only goes one way in China - you are only accountable to the people above you - anyone below has pretty much no redress. Something like this would only have left the people above them blaming local officials and making them fall on their sword in some way or other,

I don't get what is so hysterical about pointing the finger at a country that is secretive, authoritarian and the source of a global pandemic that is killing tens of thousands? I wonder how quick to defend the USA and Donald Trump you'd be if the source had been North America? Incidentally, I'm not suggesting boycotting goods from China - the people who are will probably give up when they realise how much we import from China anyway - but there is every reason when this is all over for the international community to pressure China into better food regulation.

Pressuring China into better food regulation -- or, better, there being an international community with the moral suasion to do so -- would be a great outcome of this but, although this pandemic emerged from wild animals, the majority of recent pandemics have emerged from the intensive agriculture that's all the rage, everywhere, and particularly the meat production industry.
And I don't think most contributors to this thread that want China to pay want to stop at them being pressured into better food regulation.

 

[Napper]

China are on my sh1t list for sure.

Hope the world goes after them after all this

 

[Bakero]

I bought a solidarity Chinese takeaway in the early days of this crisis and made sure I frequented local Chinese-owned shops, buying products made in China. It's not possible now as they've all closed their doors. Feck your boycott.

 

[Guinness Boy]

MPs find China "misled the world from outset"

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...covid-19-mps-warn/ar-BB12dIlw?ocid=spartanntp

 

[beorhthelm]

MPs find China "misled the world from outset"

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...covid-19-mps-warn/ar-BB12dIlw?ocid=spartanntp

this is sad that our parliament is joining the propaganda, might as well start calling it China virus a al Trump.

 

[Guinness Boy]

In response to other points on this thread though, having lived in Taiwan for over three years and studied a fair bit of recent Chinese history to understand the context of how the place I was living in came to be that way, there are a few things people need to understand.

Firstly, overthrow the government? Forget it. China, for geo-political reasons, needs to have a strong, dictatorial government if it is to remain as one entity. it is huge, vaster than any of us can imagine and also used to central control. From the Dynasties to the KMT to the Communists there has always been hierarchical control from a power base. The alternative is a federal system not unlike the states but where either regions or, perhaps, people (such as the Uighurs) agitate for self rule or independence. That is no more stable than today. In fact, as we briefly saw when Yugoslavia broke up, the potential for corruption, war, poverty and, yes, disease is potentially far greater.

Secondly, I have no reason at all to hate Chinese people but the Chinese government needs to be accountable. Sanctions / boycotts / whatever will hurt the population but they may also lead to the government losing face and cracking down on poor practice, whether in research labs or wet markets. At the moment, despite the central control mentioned above, it is too easy for local party officials to turn a blind eye to things. This must be tightened up. Such action may affect people in places like Nanjing or Shenzhen but people in these cities are currently going about their business while the West eats a big shit sandwich. If nothing else deliberate future bio attacks must be discouraged as a country raised on the writings of Sun Tzu will undoubtedly be looking at us now and noting every single weakness.

I've got Taiwanese and Chinese friends, we're on first name terms at our local Chinese restaurant and a I bloody love that area of the world and studying Chinese culture. Doing nothing would seem the obvious non-Xenophobic reaction. But I fail to see how doing nothing is an option. A slap on the wrist simply means lessons have not been learned.

 

[Machiavelli]

In response to other points on this thread though, having lived in Taiwan for over three years and studied a fair bit of recent Chinese history to understand the context of how the place I was living in came to be that way, there are a few things people need to understand.

Firstly, overthrow the government? Forget it. China, for geo-political reasons, needs to have a strong, dictatorial government if it is to remain as one entity. it is huge, vaster than any of us can imagine and also used to central control. From the Dynasties to the KMT to the Communists there has always been hierarchical control from a power base. The alternative is a federal system not unlike the states but where either regions or, perhaps, people (such as the Uighurs) agitate for self rule or independence. That is no more stable than today. In fact, as we briefly saw when Yugoslavia broke up, the potential for corruption, war, poverty and, yes, disease is potentially far greater.

Secondly, I have no reason at all to hate Chinese people but the Chinese government needs to be accountable. Sanctions / boycotts / whatever will hurt the population but they may also lead to the government losing face and cracking down on poor practice, whether in research labs or wet markets. At the moment, despite the central control mentioned above, it is too easy for local party officials to turn a blind eye to things. This must be tightened up. Such action may affect people in places like Nanjing or Shenzhen but people in these cities are currently going about their business while the West eats a big shit sandwich. If nothing else deliberate future bio attacks must be discouraged as a country raised on the writings of Sun Tzu will undoubtedly be looking at us now and noting every single weakness.

I've got Taiwanese and Chinese friends, we're on first name terms at our local Chinese restaurant and a I bloody love that area of the world and studying Chinese culture. Doing nothing would seem the obvious non-Xenophobic reaction. But I fail to see how doing nothing is an option. A slap on the wrist simply means lessons have not been learned.

This is all very insightful, but you haven't committed on what you think should be done. My initial shot is that global institutions need to be strengthened, and all nationalities need to abide by what follows. It could even be extended from virus control (eg no wet markets, China) on to tackling the anthropocene and maybe even finance.

 

[Guinness Boy]

this is sad that our parliament is joining the propaganda, might as well start calling it China virus a al Trump.

Did you read the article or link to the report. There is evidence of disinformation and Russia and Iran are also mentioned. However, they are not the subject of this thread.

As I say above ^^ it is vitally important that people distinguish between the Chinese government, the Chinese people and China as a country. That Trump quote is disgusting. But pointing out instances of disinformation that may be contributable to thousands of deaths is not.

 

[beorhthelm]

Did you read the article or link to the report. There is evidence of disinformation and Russia and Iran are also mentioned. However, they are not the subject of this thread.

As I say above ^^ it is vitally important that people distinguish between the Chinese government, the Chinese people and China as a country. That Trump quote is disgusting. But pointing out instances of disinformation that may be contributable to thousands of deaths is not.

i did, and some sources of the committe report. on the one hand we have Chinese authorities informing WHO of the outbreak on 31 Dec, getting samples sent across the world for gene sequencing, on the other claims they hid the outbreak and downplayed the seriousness in the following weeks, all with hindsight. maybe they simply didnt know themselves how serious it was in the first few weeks of Jan? seems some are eager to attribute lack of information of a novel virus to malice.

 

[Guinness Boy]

This is all very insightful, but you haven't committed on what you think should be done. My initial shot is that global institutions need to be strengthened, and all nationalities need to abide by what follows. It could even be extended from virus control (eg no wet markets, China) on to tackling the anthropocene and maybe even finance.

Yes, a wide range of measures to prevent further instances of new diseases with sanctions or financial penalty. I'd definitely start with closing down the wet markets but I think they'd need to evidence how secure their research facilities are as well. But it is just as important to appear united and strong. There's a large concept of "face" in Chinese culture. The standard example is two men arguing over whose fault a traffic accident was instead of phoning for an ambulance for a victim in one of the cars. If no representation is made to their government at all they will have got away with it in their own minds.

Exactly what form that takes I'd leave to experts and skilled diplomats though. Although having Raab in charge of that? Eek.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In response to other points on this thread though, having lived in Taiwan for over three years and studied a fair bit of recent Chinese history to understand the context of how the place I was living in came to be that way, there are a few things people need to understand.

Firstly, overthrow the government? Forget it. China, for geo-political reasons, needs to have a strong, dictatorial government if it is to remain as one entity. it is huge, vaster than any of us can imagine and also used to central control. From the Dynasties to the KMT to the Communists there has always been hierarchical control from a power base. The alternative is a federal system not unlike the states but where either regions or, perhaps, people (such as the Uighurs) agitate for self rule or independence. That is no more stable than today. In fact, as we briefly saw when Yugoslavia broke up, the potential for corruption, war, poverty and, yes, disease is potentially far greater.

Secondly, I have no reason at all to hate Chinese people but the Chinese government needs to be accountable. Sanctions / boycotts / whatever will hurt the population but they may also lead to the government losing face and cracking down on poor practice, whether in research labs or wet markets. At the moment, despite the central control mentioned above, it is too easy for local party officials to turn a blind eye to things. This must be tightened up. Such action may affect people in places like Nanjing or Shenzhen but people in these cities are currently going about their business while the West eats a big shit sandwich. If nothing else deliberate future bio attacks must be discouraged as a country raised on the writings of Sun Tzu will undoubtedly be looking at us now and noting every single weakness.

I've got Taiwanese and Chinese friends, we're on first name terms at our local Chinese restaurant and a I bloody love that area of the world and studying Chinese culture. Doing nothing would seem the obvious non-Xenophobic reaction. But I fail to see how doing nothing is an option. A slap on the wrist simply means lessons have not been learned.

Very good post.

I would add a bit about the eating habits, and some history, FWIW.

There have been some major cock-ups in recent Chinese history. The cultural revolution is one. For example, Mao mobilized the nation to shoot birds from the sky to protect crops. With no natural preditors, there were plagues of voracious insects and (yet another wave of) starvation.

Crop failure and extreme hardship have come in and out in China for ever. This trope about eating everything is a product of their historical experience of having to eat everything. Being fat has been a sign of wealth and status (because you can afford to eat) in China. We may mock the pangolin and bat story, but when you are starving you will eat anything and learn to enjoy it.

Add the genocide of Mao into the mix and you get a pragmatic population, feeling strong and protected by being part of a massive ordered nation, but with habits and customs still rooted in the recent past.

They won't even have noticed our wet politicians and journalists calling for sanctions.

Anyway, we Brits sure know the best way of grabing the attention of foreigners and forcing them to do things our way. As we did so effectively for the last 30 years as members of the EU

If we decide the next thing we want to leave is engagement with China, to show them what's what, let them know who is superior, so they can jolly well mend their ways, or else. . . .I don't really need to finish this sentence, do I? <sigh>

 

[Swansman]

Money (investment) and products come from China... there will be no "sanctions". Wet markets will probably go but is really only part of the problem.

 

[Triggaaar]

That may well be true but people saying things like "I'm never eating chow mein again" aren't making that distinction

Yes of course, I agree.

I was referring to the post which said 'Imagine what is like to know that your family is at risk from prejudice (or injury) when visiting Brighton, and it's your fellow supporters that are helping to propagate this anti China rhetoric'.

I'm fine with anti China rhetoric, I think it's a terrible regime. However, I am completely against anything that is anti Chinese.

 

[Springal]

I bought a solidarity Chinese takeaway in the early days of this crisis and made sure I frequented local Chinese-owned shops, buying products made in China. It's not possible now as they've all closed their doors. Feck your boycott.

My post was not meant to be taken entirely seriously..

 

[Springal]

Although this is a good example of why getting too close to them is not a great idea... and does not help the accusation often thrown at the Chinese

https://news.sky.com/story/state-ow...control-of-chip-designer-imagination-11968494