children in poverty

[BadFish]

In a way I wished you had not mentioned this, as it then encourages others to comment on your personal situation, which is hard to do. I think I am right in confirming that you opened your account by blaming the Tories for the predicament of poor families, whatever the definition of poverty is. I can see that your situation was not good, but if you and your wife split up, and she then boozes it all away, thus frittering away your funds, why should the social (i.e. other taxpayers whose wives don't booze it all) give a xxxx as you refer to it. Of course children will always be supported, and rightly so, but this is what I mean when I write about personal responsibility. Great that your second wife has come to the rescue and I am genuinely delighted for you, but your previous situation can be mirrored hundreds of thousands of times in present-day UK, and whilst you may understandably consider that you were poor, it is not a reason why others should feel guilt.

As an example perhaps this is a good glimpse into the situation. I am not sure what guilt has to do with it though. Society has no reason to feel guilt about situations such as this but maybe it is in our best interest to do something about it and help out. School and childhood are an important time in the shaping of the adults who make up our society. If we can help a couple of kids through this and stop them from becoming disengaged from school then we stand a good chance of stopping them becoming disengaged from society later on and potentially become a huge burden both socially and financially.

The problem as i see it is that this discussion is framed as why the hell should I help you. When in fact we should see a society that we are part of so in helping others we are actually helping ourselves. We have become so caught up in individualism that we have forgotten that actually we need each other to create a strong healthy and happy society.

 

[BadFish]

There are very few families without books or education. It's what you do with what's available. Both of my parents live in council houses (divorced when I was 8) so nothing came to me. I did have a grammar school education but left school at 16 with just O levels as there wasn't anything else available unless you were rich (60s)
I was determined that my kids would have the best chances, so read to them whilst they were toddlers, got books out of the library, & encouraged them by going to parent evenings etc. One went to uni and is a chartered tax accountant now, the other left school at 18 and has worked his way up to Station Officer in the Fire Brigade. From a generation with nothing, to middle class in 30 years.

I used to work as a youth worker and saw for myself the attitude of people who said school was a waste of time, because it did nothing for them. Their kids grew up with the same attitude so the cycle went on.

I know you are looking for approval here but ****ing good on you. I am glad you valued your kids education and set them off on a road to succeed. You are one of the success stories that we often don't hear about.

 

[Hastings gull]

As an example perhaps this is a good glimpse into the situation. I am not sure what guilt has to do with it though. Society has no reason to feel guilt about situations such as this but maybe it is in our best interest to do something about it and help out. School and childhood are an important time in the shaping of the adults who make up our society. If we can help a couple of kids through this and stop them from becoming disengaged from school then we stand a good chance of stopping them becoming disengaged from society later on and potentially become a huge burden both socially and financially.

The problem as i see it is that this discussion is framed as why the hell should I help you. When in fact we should see a society that we are part of so in helping others we are actually helping ourselves. We have become so caught up in individualism that we have forgotten that actually we need each other to create a strong healthy and happy society.

The idea of guilt was not well explained, and I can now see that. The post began by blaming Tories for poverty, and what I meant was that conservative voters should not feel that by voting Tory they have contributed to his (as he saw it) poverty, given how he later explained it was arrived at. It was hardly a politician's fault. I agree with everything you say about kids being disengaged etc -this is not an issue. It all depends what you mean by "helping" - if you mean ply families with benefits, then this is debatable, as it is quite likely that you will simply confirm their lifestyle. As I explained to you in an earlier post, much is done in schools already to help disadvantaged children attain the results that their counterparts do, but needless to say, this is not easy, given the often negative attitudes prevalent at home.
As to the start of your final para, I have seen precious little to confirm that - being against doling out benefits does not necessarily mean that they are unwilling to help as such, just that they question the wisdom of funding a lifestyle on benefits. As to your last sentence, this sounds like some meaningless claptrap that a sociologist would be proud of. What does it mean and where is your evidence for this? How can you possibly be in a position to comment with any degree of authority on British society? Much is still done in an unsung way to foster good relations in the UK and whilst the press might like to concentrate on bad news, most folk are good-hearted. And this from a person who earlier in the day talked of disliking generalisations and sweeping statements.

 

[BadFish]

I know you are looking for approval here but ****ing good on you. I am glad you valued your kids education and set them off on a road to succeed. You are one of the success stories that we often don't hear about.

Sorry that should say NOT looking for approval.

 

[narly101]

Please accept my apologies for not having read the entire thread, but one main theme I've seen over the last few comments is one main thing. A clear lack of responsibility on behalf of the parents. Thunderbolt has proved that with a little effort on behalf of the parents and driving their children, you can achieve. I agree that one example isn't indicative of the masses, but without that responsibility from the parents, children WILL suffer. Rather than look to "society" to help those children, surely "society" would be better suited to ensure this "lack of responsibility" isn't endemic in a population more interested in ensuring they have fags, booze and sky tv, rather than helping their kids with education and life lessons. Parents responsibility for their children never ends. One of the main problems with a minority of parents is that they don't believe it's "their" responsibility to look after their children. No one is ever taught how to be parents, maybe "society" needs to reconsider.

 

[Hastings gull]

Please accept my apologies for not having read the entire thread, but one main theme I've seen over the last few comments is one main thing. A clear lack of responsibility on behalf of the parents. Thunderbolt has proved that with a little effort on behalf of the parents and driving their children, you can achieve. I agree that one example isn't indicative of the masses, but without that responsibility from the parents, children WILL suffer. Rather than look to "society" to help those children, surely "society" would be better suited to ensure this "lack of responsibility" isn't endemic in a population more interested in ensuring they have fags, booze and sky tv, rather than helping their kids with education and life lessons. Parents responsibility for their children never ends. One of the main problems with a minority of parents is that they don't believe it's "their" responsibility to look after their children. No one is ever taught how to be parents, maybe "society" needs to reconsider.

A fascinating post and one which is hard to disagree with -any teacher with their feet on the ground will happily confirm this. I do however think your final conclusion contrasts with the thrust of your message. It is parental responsibility, not society's.

 

[Indigo Wolf]

We might all have a different definition or standard of poverty. But it's true, things have gotten way worse over the years, and it's not only a few countries, it's a global issue.