[News] Can you really make offenders attend sentencing?

[Titanic]

Should be easy to get this through House of Commons with the opposition supporting it...

Furious Labour Party demands change to law so all criminals attend sentencing

The opposition has leapt on the outrage with a call for change, while the Government has said they will ‘look' at the issue.

www.express.co.uk

 

[Cornwallboy]

I was more concerned to read recently 7 out of 10 officers in the Met haven't made a proper arrest in the last 12 months.

This country is truly going to rat shit before our eyes.

When you read this is that stat much of a surprise?

Bianca Williams: Five police officers could face sack over stop and search of Great Britain sprinter and partner Ricardo Dos Santos

The Team GB athlete accused the officers of racial profiling when she and her partner were handcuffed and searched for drugs and weapons in west London in 2020.

news.sky.com

 

[Titanic]

...I'm more inclined to listen to those who work regularly in the courts and in the police/prison service.

Mark Fairhurst, chair of the Prison Officers' Association, said it was "about time" courts were "more robust" with defendants who refuse to appear.
"Let's listen to the people who really matter in all this and that's the victims and their families," he told BBC Breakfast earlier this month.
"And if we have to force people to appear in the dock, then we have the staff to do it, we have the training to do it, we have the skills to do it. Let's make it happen," Mr Fairhurst added.

Criminals to be forced to attend sentencing hearings

It follows a number of high-profile cases where offenders refused to appear, including Lucy Letby.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[happypig]

There's an old adage that says "Hard cases make bad law".
This announcement is driven by a couple of recent abhorrent crimes where the defendant refused to attend sentencing. They are particularly "hard" cases.
Unfortunately these in these cases the defendant was facing a whole life tariff so there's nothing to "add on".

In the main, when running a court (whatever the offence) you are dependant on compliance from the people in the court; not only defendants but victims, witnesses, advocates and observers. If someone becomes unruly then you threaten to exclude them (if the defendant is in custody, you send them to the cells and proceed in absence.
It's unfortunate and can be upsetting and frustrating for victims but if a defendant says "I'm not going" there's not a lot can be done without making them the centre of attention for all the wrong reasons.

 

[happypig]

Mark Fairhurst, chair of the Prison Officers' Association, said it was "about time" courts were "more robust" with defendants who refuse to appear.
"Let's listen to the people who really matter in all this and that's the victims and their families," he told BBC Breakfast earlier this month.
"And if we have to force people to appear in the dock, then we have the staff to do it, we have the training to do it, we have the skills to do it. Let's make it happen," Mr Fairhurst added.

Criminals to be forced to attend sentencing hearings

It follows a number of high-profile cases where offenders refused to appear, including Lucy Letby.

www.bbc.co.uk

I;d be interested to know how he proposes to use the skills and training to make someone in the dock stand quietly and listen to the judge; if the defendant starts shouting over the judge and they aren't allowed to remove him/her what will they do ? Batter them into silence ?

 

[junior]

I was more concerned to read recently 7 out of 10 officers in the Met haven't made a proper arrest in the last 12 months.

This country is truly going to rat shit before our eyes.

I don't think that's concerning, more that it shows you don't really have an understanding of policing.

Whilst I can't comment specifically on the 7 out of 10 ratio...

Most police forces will have an incomparable ratio of front line police officers working in a 'response' capacity to those working in support and 'back office' capacity. A few examples being all the officers working in call handling/radio operator roles, working in custody centres, front office, training centres, performance oversight, supervisory and leadership roles, missing persons teams, crime recording and resolution departments, file progression officers, underwater search teams, helicopters...I could go on...

It's highly unlikely that any of them would ever be in a position to need to arrest someone, so I don't find it concerning at all. But then again if you look at it like that, it doesn't make a good headline does it?

 

[GT49er]

Can’t see how you can make people do anything...............

Same way as you make them come t the police station when arrested, and make them go to prison I guess.

Disruptive/shouting/threatening behaviour in court, whatever could be a problem. Threat of a longer sentence and/or loss of priveleges could help, I suppose.
Anyway, rather than this being a bit of Government willy-waving attention seeking it seems to have much wider support, including Labour it seems; will probably get through then, and I don't think many people will be sorry.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I;d be interested to know how he proposes to use the skills and training to make someone in the dock stand quietly and listen to the judge; if the defendant starts shouting over the judge and they aren't allowed to remove him/her what will they do ? Batter them into silence ?

Would one way audio work ? Ie the convicted would be able to hear the sentence (and be observed doing so) but the court can’t hear from them. No interruption to the judge and the victims get what they are asking for.

 

[junior]

Would one way audio work ? Ie the convicted would be able to hear the sentence (and be observed doing so) but the court can’t hear from them. No interruption to the judge and the victims get what they are asking for.

But if the defendant was making so much noise/disruption it was necessary to have one way audio, it's unlikely they would be able to hear what the judge or family were saying. How do you force someone to listen to something? You can't really.

 

[Molango's visa]

I would support it if some of those convicted were forced to not attend. Who, for example would relish the sight of their rapist smirking at them from the Dock? Perhaps make it victim's choice? Starmer was the first to support the principle of forcing the defendent to attend. Nobody has thought this through.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As I said, I prefer to listen to the people who have done the job rather than newspapers or recent cases.
Within this thread you have a retired magistrate and an experienced copper. I worked with the CPS before retirement.
It is grandstanding by the politicians who don't have to make it work.

 

[Littlemo]

I am not especially against it, but I feel like they are basing this on the victims families who, I think mistakenly, have ideas of seeing the criminals faces when they are sentenced and wanting to see them look sorrowful/remorseful etc when they realise they are going to jail.

The truth is though that a lot of criminals don’t care if they get sentenced to jail. A lot of criminals are not going to look the way that the families want them to look, sad or scared etc, because people who are happy to commit atrocious crimes are usually people who don’t care about the feelings etc of others, they aren’t bothered about their grief.

How are they going to feel when the defendant is sitting laughing at them or threatening them? Or even if they don’t get any response out of them. It’s a waste of time.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I am not especially against it, but I feel like they are basing this on the victims families who, I think mistakenly, have ideas of seeing the criminals faces when they are sentenced and wanting to see them look sorrowful/remorseful etc when they realise they are going to jail.

The truth is though that a lot of criminals don’t care if they get sentenced to jail. A lot of criminals are not going to look the way that the families want them to look, sad or scared etc, because people who are happy to commit atrocious crimes are usually people who don’t care about the feelings etc of others, they aren’t bothered about their grief.

How are they going to feel when the defendant is sitting laughing at them or threatening them? Or even if they don’t get any response out of them. It’s a waste of time.

True. Many victims don't attend sentencing at all, preferring to have their victim statement read out by the prosecutor.

Someone mentioned the defendant having to be present for the verdict and sentencing to happen immediately. There are many factors involved in sentencing especially for the more minor cases where probation reports have to be prepared.

 

[Titanic]

Mark Fairhurst, chair of the Prison Officers' Association, said it was "about time" courts were "more robust" with defendants who refuse to appear.
"Let's listen to the people who really matter in all this and that's the victims and their families," he told BBC Breakfast earlier this month.
"And if we have to force people to appear in the dock, then we have the staff to do it, we have the training to do it, we have the skills to do it. Let's make it happen," Mr Fairhurst added.

Criminals to be forced to attend sentencing hearings

It follows a number of high-profile cases where offenders refused to appear, including Lucy Letby.

www.bbc.co.uk

As I said, I prefer to listen to the people who have done the job rather than newspapers or recent cases.
Within this thread you have a retired magistrate and an experienced copper. I worked with the CPS before retirement.
It is grandstanding by the politicians who don't have to make it work.

 

[junior]

Nobody is saying that their aren't people who have the skills to physically remove someone from a cell, transport them to a prison and then place them in a dock.

It's what would then happen that people are pointing out.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Why do people feel so strongly about this? It's such a minor policy change, its just topical at the moment.

Is it just any excuse to say "tories bad, grrrrrrr"?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But if the defendant was making so much noise/disruption it was necessary to have one way audio, it's unlikely they would be able to hear what the judge or family were saying. How do you force someone to listen to something? You can't really.

I was under the impression that the victims’ families want to be able to see the convicted being sentenced and remove their power to not attend. I haven’t heard them say anything about forcing them to listen.

 

[Deleted member 37369]

As I said, I prefer to listen to the people who have done the job rather than newspapers or recent cases.
Within this thread you have a retired magistrate and an experienced copper. I worked with the CPS before retirement.
It is grandstanding by the politicians who don't have to make it work.

And yet Sir Keir - who headed the CPS - demanded that the government make this change?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And yet Sir Keir - who headed the CPS - demanded that the government make this change?

View attachment 165698

I know and I disagree with him.

 

[portlock seagull]

And yet Sir Keir - who headed the CPS - demanded that the government make this change?

View attachment 165698

What, the leader of the opposition making political capital out of something?