Brighton Station car park £90 Parking fine.

[BigGully]

I personally wouldnt want the hassle and stress of it all.

Just bin the letters, far less stressful than writing a cheque for £90.00 for an exorbitant unenforceable charge.

 

[thony]

Trying to avoid paying for your parking "because you think you can get away with it" and the company not being able to enforce the penalty charge is, to my mind, little different to the tax loopholes that everyone's currently up in arms about. OP seems to be saying that he didn't bother to look for a means to pay (or even try to check how he was meant to pay) because he thought he could park for free if it was a problem with the barrier. (ie, trying to "steal" a service that he knew he should pay for).
Personally, I feel that's morally wrong, as all those doing that will drive up parking costs for everyone else. The government should look to legislate to close these loopholes, allow these companies to impose fines they can enforce, and force the thieves to pay their fair contribution to society.

Signed,
Jimmy Carr

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Trying to avoid paying for your parking "because you think you can get away with it" and the company not being able to enforce the penalty charge is, to my mind, little different to the tax loopholes that everyone's currently up in arms about. OP seems to be saying that he didn't bother to look for a means to pay (or even try to check how he was meant to pay) because he thought he could park for free if it was a problem with the barrier. (ie, trying to "steal" a service that he knew he should pay for).
Personally, I feel that's morally wrong, as all those doing that will drive up parking costs for everyone else. The government should look to legislate to close these loopholes, allow these companies to impose fines they can enforce, and force the thieves to pay their fair contribution to society.

Signed,
Jimmy Carr

Agree in part - i.e. if there is a charge for parking then you should pay it. That said these companies should not be able to "fine" people ( and they can't ! ). All they need to do in this case is re-instate the barrier but of course that would mean their income from unenforceable invoices would dry up.

 

[Westdene Wonder]

If it was so simple to avoid these fines then the companies that own the sites would go out of business,you thought that you had saved a tenner but in fact incurred a penalty,they have proof that you did not pay so you could now be liable to an increasing charge,the choice is yours.

 

[saltdeanseagull1]

Update, only last week did I get a follow up to the original PCN. This time it is from a letter from a debt collectors ooohhh. Saying the bill had now gone to £144. I am again ignoring as if they want to take me to court thay can. I still stand by what I said in my original post, that the barriers have been deliberatly taped up to look like they are out of order, the signage is not clear and there was no parking attendent in the hut and I have since parked there, by the way with no clamp or hassle from any one, and checked the booth and there was no one there at 06.30 in the morning, knowing about the requirement to pay by mobile I paid.
If this company was legit they should actually remove the taped up barriers and put larger signs around, also if you had no mobile phone and needed to catch a train within 10 mins what do you do?? Google metoer parking fine brighton station and you will see that I am not the first person to be tricked in to thinking barriers were out of order.
If it is truly ANPR why do they need to write to the DVLA. the earlier post is right, they refer to it as ANPR but it simply is a photo triggered on entry and exiting.

To Thony, whose morals I have offended by being a car park paying dodger, Im sure the large number of people they tag with scam and pay up the PCN's more than make up for my £11 missed payment. I m guessing that if you pulled up to churchill square shopping centre and all the barriers were stuck up you would say to your self " this is' nt right, I must pay for my car parking" and you would turn around and go to another car park where you can pay for the service received.

I shall let you know how my court case goes!!!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If it was so simple to avoid these fines then the companies that own the sites would go out of business,you thought that you had saved a tenner but in fact incurred a penalty,they have proof that you did not pay so you could now be liable to an increasing charge,the choice is yours.

That is complete and utter bollocks. Firstly under English contract law a company can not issue a "penalty" to an individual. Secondly the reason these companies still exist is because they send scary letters full of lies but too many people do not know their rights in law so give in and pay. PRIVATE PARKING "TICKETS" = IGNORE all day long - and yes I've successfully ignored them before.

 

[LadySeagull]

If it was so simple to avoid these fines then the companies that own the sites would go out of business,you thought that you had saved a tenner but in fact incurred a penalty,they have proof that you did not pay so you could now be liable to an increasing charge,the choice is yours.

'Penalty', LOL, that would be unlawful! You really haven't sussed that these fake PCNs are a scam have you?! You may learn something from this thread that will save you or a family member some money one day. People get these scam invoices in car parks every day (applies to car parks at Supermarkets, Railways, Toys R Us, Next, Waitrose, Currys, Dunelm Mill, hotels, cinemas, blocks of flats, hospitals, you name it a scammer is waiting to issue a fake PCN for any made up 'contravention'). :

A motorists' fightback forum's explanation of why ignoring is what you do with this scam, full details explained:

Dealing with from Private Parking Companies (PPCs) - FightBack Forums

And that was written before a recnt case where HMRC declared that Private Parking Companies do not have the property rights to offer parking nor issue a claim for trespass nor can they claim a payment under contract as that would be a penalty! Basically HMRC lined up all the arguments and shot them down in May. See HMRC -v- VCS.

A solicitor's view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAIcdi9niHA

A barrister's view:

I have received a Charge Notice for and fine for sleeping in - JustAnswer


The barrister says:

''This is private land fine. They run against the driver not the registered keeper. They are issued by private land companies who have no more right to punish you for the manner of your parking than your neighbours do. Only the police or the local Council can do that.''

It really isn't rocket science to understand how these companies stay in business...it's because of idiots paying up to avoid the 'hassle' or because they actually think it's a real PCN. There are lots of gullible people in Britain and the fat cats who run the biggest Private Parking Companies are very very rich and own racehorses, mansions, sports cars and yachts because of the gullible nature of the UK public when they see something that impersonates an official letter. Especially something that impersonates a parking ticket which people have a natural impulse to pay or appeal before it gets a higher amount. These companies have found a real money-spinner but there is lots of info out there from those of us who know it's just one big con.

The letters they send are just hot air but impersonating authority - just like a series of phishing emails really and very very easy to ignore. I have!

No-one with any sense would pay one of these 'parking charge notices'. There are no repercussions, no effect on credit rating as it is NOT a fine, not a debt at all.

 

[LadySeagull]

Update, only last week did I get a follow up to the original PCN. This time it is from a letter from a debt collectors ooohhh. Saying the bill had now gone to £144. I am again ignoring as if they want to take me to court thay can. I still stand by what I said in my original post, that the barriers have been deliberatly taped up to look like they are out of order, the signage is not clear and there was no parking attendent in the hut and I have since parked there, by the way with no clamp or hassle from any one, and checked the booth and there was no one there at 06.30 in the morning, knowing about the requirement to pay by mobile I paid.
If this company was legit they should actually remove the taped up barriers and put larger signs around, also if you had no mobile phone and needed to catch a train within 10 mins what do you do?? Google metoer parking fine brighton station and you will see that I am not the first person to be tricked in to thinking barriers were out of order.
If it is truly ANPR why do they need to write to the DVLA. the earlier post is right, they refer to it as ANPR but it simply is a photo triggered on entry and exiting.

To Thony, whose morals I have offended by being a car park paying dodger, Im sure the large number of people they tag with scam and pay up the PCN's more than make up for my £11 missed payment. I m guessing that if you pulled up to churchill square shopping centre and all the barriers were stuck up you would say to your self " this is' nt right, I must pay for my car parking" and you would turn around and go to another car park where you can pay for the service received.

I shall let you know how my court case goes!!!

There will be no Court case.

There will be letters just like phishing emails, and here are picture previews of them all:

Private Parking Companies' Letters, Threats Court Papers - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

Looks like Meteor use Roxburghe/Graham White (pretending they've referred it to a Solicitor) letters and there are lots of pics on there under other companies of the lovely letters you can look forward to. Don't just look at the Meteor details, just look a bit more and find 'your' letter under another firm listed as using the same scam letters.

Just play snap with each matching 'threatogram' - it's simple. Carry on ignoring.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

There will be no Court case.

There will be letters just like phishing emails, and here are picture previews of them all:

Private Parking Companies' Letters, Threats Court Papers - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

Looks like Meteor use Roxburghe/Graham White (pretending they've referred it to a Solicitor) letters and there are lots of pics on there under other companies of the lovely letters you can look forward to. Don't just look at the Meteor details, just look a bit more and find 'your' letter under another firm listed as using the same scam letters.

Just play snap with each matching 'threatogram' - it's simple. Carry on ignoring.

I don't know if this is sound advice or not as I always pay the parking company at the station for use of its service, costs me often between 4 and 10 pounds depending on the length of stay, there is a cheaper one lower down the steps if I am not in such a hurry.

So on a different slant, is the parking charge not worth paying just to avoid the months of letters, phone calls and mild tension/stress every time the phone rings or someone knocks at the door.

 

[BensGrandad]

I must admit I quite like the buzz of fighting these companies and am actively involved in fighting one now to recoup a clamping charge for my daughter in law, but must say it is not going too well at the moment.

 

[BigGully]

I don't know if this is sound advice or not as I always pay the parking company at the station for use of its service, costs me often between 4 and 10 pounds depending on the length of stay, there is a cheaper one lower down the steps if I am not in such a hurry.

So on a different slant, is the parking charge not worth paying just to avoid the months of letters, phone calls and mild tension/stress every time the phone rings or someone knocks at the door.

I do not think anyone is advising ignoring paying a reasonable fee for the services rendered.

The issue for me seems that if either by mistake or by overstaying your initial parking time are you then compelled to pay an extortionate amount for that indiscretion.

It seems ( and I have done it ) that you have no obligation whatever to pay their self made penalty amount, wrapped up within an official 'fine looking' document.

My own view isnt on behalf of those not wishing to pay in any case, but for those that inadvertently may have slipped out of the original parking agreement and then is then 'ordered' to pay an amount which is disproportionate to the services received.

It is of financial benefit to those companies to send out these official looking spam documents rather than pay a minimum wage to someone that might contact any drivers on entry and exit.

Just a person in a kiosk would do the trick surely .....

 

[BensGrandad]

Sainsburys in Haywards Heath have a chap wandering around with his machine to issue tickets which he does quite often and I often wonder if they are all paid , chased or ignored..

 

[Lush]

Presumably the same legislation that means that you can't be fined for parking on private land is the same legislation that means that travellers can park where they like without immediate legal redress?

If it is, do you think the law needs to be changed - or not?

 

[BigGully]

Presumably the same legislation that means that you can't be fined for parking on private land is the same legislation that means that travellers can park where they like without immediate legal redress?

If it is, do you think the law needs to be changed - or not?

I would assume a private car park offers an invite to enter and park .....

 

[BensGrandad]

Slightly OT: Heard yesterday outside Iceland Haywards Heath.

MSDC Traffic Warden : You are on yellow lines.
Driver: Sorry forgot to put mothers Disabled Badges up.

Warden: You cant park there if your mothers ISNT in the car. She must be in the car to use the blue badges.
Driver: But I was told by the police I cant park the car if mother IS IN the car. She is down at Costas I am now going to pick her up as she cant walk back having walked there in the first place from here.

Warden: The Police dont know what they are talking about, I do I am a traffic warden.
Driver But I was acting on what Sussex Police have told me.

Warden; Ignore the Police they know nothing. You have 1 minute to move your car

Quite incredible really,How is a disabled person supposed to do their shopping if they can only use their badge if they are sat in the car.

 

[LadySeagull]

I don't know if this is sound advice or not as I always pay the parking company at the station for use of its service, costs me often between 4 and 10 pounds depending on the length of stay, there is a cheaper one lower down the steps if I am not in such a hurry.

So on a different slant, is the parking charge not worth paying just to avoid the months of letters, phone calls and mild tension/stress every time the phone rings or someone knocks at the door.

Do you feel mild tension every time you get another phishing email and you wish you'd sent money to the first one? The handful of letters sent over a fake PCN is the same sort of 'impersonating authority' scam as a series of phishing emails. Easy to just file each one. Anyone who pays would be an idiot.

And I don't know where you get the idea that a private parking company send people round to knock on the door! They can't just send a bailiff round, otherwise I could allege you owe me money and just 'send a bailiff round' if I knew your address. So could anyone for any made up amount! But no, Court bailiffs can only act for a Court.

People knocking on the door DOES NOT happen over this scam. They can't knock on doors, you are confusing debt collectors with bailiffs, or maybe you are thinking of door to door debt collection where there's a credit agreement signed? Not relevant with this scam which relies utterly on people's fear of parking tickets and ignorance of the difference between a real one and a fake one.

Very occasionally a debt collector (aka pen pusher with no powers at all) phones up in which case MSE forums tell people to say 'the alleged debt is denied so pass it back to the originating company otherwise your contact is harassment'. Easy. And they can't phone again over it or they could be sued and would also be breaking OFT debt collection rules which risks their credit licence.

The most that you have to ignore is a few letters which MATCH the pics on the MSE link, so it's just playing snap! Not exactly something that causes mild tension in my book!




P.S. edited just to make it clear that no-one here who also posts on MSE (3 of us at least in this thread!) is saying not to pay a reasonable P&D fee at a machine, we are not saying park for free if it's a paying car park. There's no parking anarchy about it at all.

We are saying if you get a fake PCN then laugh at it and ignore it.

 

[thony]

To Thony, whose morals I have offended ... I m guessing that if you pulled up to churchill square shopping centre and all the barriers were stuck up you would say to your self " this is' nt right, I must pay for my car parking" and you would turn around and go to another car park where you can pay for the service received.

...but that was Jimmy Carr, not me!

OK, so: Sorry, I was making a rather veiled point at your expense: There are parallels between the advice offered in this thread (trying to avoid paying out down to arguments over the legality rather than what is right) and Jimmy Carr's case (trying to avoid... you get the picture). People are encouraging you to not pay anything because they can't legally enforce the penalty (or even the original parking charge), but are in another thread insisting that Jimmy Carr should be willing to pay what is fair even though he has found a legal means to get out of it.

To give my real thoughts on this: I feel you were at best naive and at worst attempting to turn a situation to your advantage in "assuming" that you didn't need to pay. If I were in that situation, yes, I would think "this isn't right, I would expect to have to pay to use this car park". But you've got my subsequent action wrong. I would do what any intelligent person would think sensible if they wanted to avoid a fine: after parking, I would have a good look around (including at the car park entrance) for any indication of how I was expected to pay for my parking, or a notice saying that parking is now free. If I were to find that I wouldn't expect to be able to pay (eg, prepaid vouchers, pay-by-mobile), then perhaps I WOULD look for somewhere else to park. If it were that I WOULD be able to pay but didn't have the opportunity (eg, unmanned payment booth), then I'd make a note of the time I parked and be prepared to pay when I got back to the car. Then, in the case of still not being able to pay after returning to the car, I'd offer to pay if I was subsequently chased for it.

So, in summary, if I were in your current situation, personally I'd just send them a cheque for the amount that I should have paid to park there, and ignore any further letters chasing non-payment of penalty charges. By paying what you SHOULD have paid, you've shown that you were happy to pay to park, supporting your argument that you were under the impression that you were unable to pay, in which case I would expect it to be very difficult for them to take you to court even if they DID have the authority to do so.

 

[LadySeagull]

...
So, in summary, if I were in your current situation, personally I'd just send them a cheque for the amount that I should have paid to park there, and ignore any further letters chasing non-payment of penalty charges. By paying what you SHOULD have paid, you've shown that you were happy to pay to park, supporting your argument that you were under the impression that you were unable to pay, in which case I would expect it to be very difficult for them to take you to court even if they DID have the authority to do so.

IMHO that's not bad advice in a car park where payment was needed. Just as long as the covering letter gives no further details, no admitting who was driving, just summat like:

'I am the owner of this car and I have received your letter. The amount you are trying to claim is an exhorbitant penalty which would not be upheld in Court. I see that the alleged incident relates to a car park where the rate is £x so I attach a cheque for £x as it appears that you are saying that the driver did not pay that amount on that occasion.

As the owner of the car I am not liable anyway but consider the matter closed and the cheque is full and final settlement. Take it to Court within the next 14 days if you disagree, otherwise desist from your usual well-known letter chain which will of course either be ignored or lead to a civil claim against you for harassment.'





(and it is NOT a fine, you called it fine, it is just a scam 'charge').

 

[thony]

Slightly OT: Heard yesterday outside Iceland Haywards Heath.

MSDC Traffic Warden : You are on yellow lines.
Driver: Sorry forgot to put mothers Disabled Badges up.

Warden: You cant park there if your mothers ISNT in the car. She must be in the car to use the blue badges.
Driver: But I was told by the police I cant park the car if mother IS IN the car. She is down at Costas I am now going to pick her up as she cant walk back having walked there in the first place from here.

Warden: The Police dont know what they are talking about, I do I am a traffic warden.
Driver But I was acting on what Sussex Police have told me.

Warden; Ignore the Police they know nothing. You have 1 minute to move your car

Quite incredible really,How is a disabled person supposed to do their shopping if they can only use their badge if they are sat in the car.

Are the terms on the badge itself, to be able to check there and then in front of the warden? If not, it may be worth finding a leaflet or printing out the terms from the internet, to carry in the car to use to support your valid use of the badge.

 

[Manx Shearwater]

Hi, I can only see one or two people advocating not paying ANYTHING, as the tickets are unenforceable. Myself, Lady Seagull, Westdene Seagull and others are not recommending that people do not pay for parking full stop.

Companies that offer parking services are entitled to make a living from it, so any charges they make for parking should be paid.

Where they fall down, is where they issue a 'penalty' or speculative invoice to give it it's correct title, for some petty 'contravention' of their terms. Such as parking slightly over a white line, leaving site to visit another shop, or anything else wher they or the landowner suffers no financial loss as a result. For example overstaying by 2 mins in a free car park with loads of spaces with a 2 hour limit.

They have no legal standing to charge £60 (or whatever) for things like this. THAT'S what we object to.