[Politics] Brexit

[stewart_weir]

Where did you get that from?

NI has always been part of the UK and has always been British. The religious divide was created by Protestants settling from the mainland. That’s why Catholics are in a minority in the province.

What an odd comment....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No NI has not "always been part of the UK". The UK is a political union that was created in 'recent' history. NI was populated by protestants from the early 1600s. Geographically NI has no relation to England. Catholics are just edging ahead in terms of majority. The last census in 2011 put the Protestant population at 48%, just 3% more than Catholics at 45%. More recent figures from 2016 show that among those of working age 44% are now Catholic and 40% Protestant.

 

[stewart_weir]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...orld-again-after-leapfrogging-india-wccxxxcqr

Requires a subscription (are you on their sales team perhaps haha

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Now can you do a statistical breakdown of costs involved with running the Scottish population of 5.45M (2019) vs the England population 55.98M (2018). Its so easy for some people to throw out statistics but not back up when in matters.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Can-Scotland-afford-independence

 

[stewart_weir]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/Can-Scotland-afford-independence

Ah yes a conservative article !! Here's one from the other side - https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotlands-finances-the-truth/

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Defend itself from whom ?

Scotland has not built up an Army of Adversaries over the years - The Westminster Government has managed that all on it's own over the years thank you very much.

The obvious answer would be Russia. They are constantly probing for weakness in Western borders whether it be online or incursions into airspace to test resolve. These could not go unanswered therefore Scotland would need a defence force

 

[Theatre of Trees]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...orld-again-after-leapfrogging-india-wccxxxcqr

How it is interpreted in India
https://www.connectedtoindia.com/indian-economy-set-to-overtake-uk-by-2025-become-worlds-third-largest-by-2030-report-8732.html

 

[drew]

And Scotland would have the ''Target off it's back''

England did the exact same as Russia - They deployed their Nuclear Warheads in places like Estonia Ukraine Kazakhstan etc initially. They didn't want Russians living next to them so put the Target on the backs of those countries instead of Russia which is why they fought so hard to keep those countries as long as they did because they knew they would need to move them closer to home.

I actually visited the site where they used to be in Estonia where the Nuclear Warhead which was trained on London used to be. It has all these beautiful Big Houses where you would expect Hollywood Stars to live in right on the Coast of Estonia. - All those big houses ; no one lives in them now because it is too dangerous to live so close to that area of the country after the Russians dismantled the Warheads and moved them closer to home in Russia.

Lets see what happens when the Government in England tells some region in England that they now need to have them on their Doorstep. I am not sure that if the Government says that they will be move to just off the Coast of Brighton, many on here would welcome them with open arms despite the amount of jobs they might bring to the region.

You really think that the nuclear subs are based at Faslane because the government want to make Scotland a target rather than the English? Care to explain why we then agreed to allow nukes at Greenham Common?

 

[beorhthelm]

Now can you do a statistical breakdown of costs involved with running the Scottish population of 5.45M (2019) vs the England population 55.98M (2018). Its so easy for some people to throw out statistics but not back up when in matters.

If England.....2.83 Trillion and Scotland produces 170 Billion what is the GDP per head value? My point is that the England population is significantly higher than Scotland and so whilst Scotland only produces 170B it needs far less than England. Im curious

well you have the numbers there yourself, do the sums. i make it Scotland $31k per head, England $50k per head.

i recall pre-covid the UK budget deficit was about £12bn and the Scottish deficit was about £12bn. ie if we werent subbing the Scots we'd have neutral budget. the actual interplay of budgets is not so clear cut but the major takeaway is the Scots run a massive deficit to their GDP.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The UK economy has been predicted to pull away from France in a big way also it has taken 5th place again despite a recession. I was never in favour of the EU but saying that didn't want to leave once in it.

Scotland though will not gain EU status quickly. They would be in a very poor state financially as an independent economy. Have to say I'd not be bothered if they decide to go. At least we would not have to hear about their crap football all the time.

I don’t always agree with you, but I always have time for you, and I agree on this point!

 

[stewart_weir]

well you have the numbers there yourself, do the sums. i make it Scotland $31k per head, England $50k per head.

i recall pre-covid the UK budget deficit was about £12bn and the Scottish deficit was about £12bn. ie if we werent subbing the Scots we'd have neutral budget. the actual interplay of budgets is not so clear cut but the major takeaway is the Scots run a massive deficit to their GDP.

I agree it wont be easy for Scotland to pay for itself however it has natural resources including most importantly wind and wave power so it can certainly be power self sufficient. What oil/gas reserves that are left again has a value even though its going to diminish and nothing like the 70/80s. Its also of great geographical significance militarily so expect that to be a plus. It also has huge fishing areas. As a Scottish descendent I hope they find their way. With Boris in charge he's making it much easier for it to happen.

 

[Change at Barnham]

Couldn’t give a shit about Europe. Uk. Scotland. Nor England really. The only people I do are F&F. They’re made up of loads nationalities. Everything else is politics which is actually a load of complete b ollocks too (tech term that). I / you have no influence over any of it really. We can’t even get my parish council to paint yellow lines on our corners (5 years they’ve been looking into, FIVE years!). Politics is a complete waste of time. Don’t get involved in. You waste valuable time in your life . And your life is running out. So enjoy what you can and try giving anyone and anything to do with politics a very wide berth. It’s all self serving which ever way you vote.

I think a lot of would be Remainers took a similar view and didn't bother casting a vote in the Brexit referendum.
That didn't end too well for the Remainers, of which I'm one and who didn't vote.

 

[Charity Shield 1910]

The population of Scotland is 5.4 Million. Less than half the population of London. People in Scotland (especially the newer residents of Scotland) would like to have, or their children would like to have, what a vast proportion of Europe / the world wants - the ability to move to London to work. The demise of the U.K. is greatly exaggerated. It is however the press next clickbait to sell airtime after the pandemic passes. A bigger question is for Irish Republic. It left the UK without a referendum in the 1920's. It's economy and legal system are in far closer step with the UK than the EU. Then, there is the problem of the Euro and governance. The EU is not a natural optimal currency area, and the problems of this will likely come into sharper focus after the pandemic. As will the problem that the creation of regulation / law in the EU is by the civil service then implemented by democratically elected politicians in member states, rather than the other way around. Pandemic's speed up change. It will be interesting to see where it ends. Either way, it's all relatively of mild importance. People's lives will be largely governed by events in Asia and the US. What happens in Ireland, Scotland and most of Europe is very much a sideshow.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

And therein lies the big problem. Scotland does not have a viable economy as a standalone country. So what they’ll do is ask for loads of money from England and just blame the Government when they don’t get what they want. It’s a constant Get Out Of Jail Free card for the SNP - and something they constantly use to defend themselves when something goes wrong.

Problem is that if the Jocks vote in favour they lose far more negotiating power than they gain. Independence, like Brexit is a an emotive vote over nationalism more than anything else. The Government will have no motivation to agree to anything they don’t want given the tiny amount of GDP Scotland contributes. It also makes Labours job a lot harder to gain a majority as they definitely need those Scottish seats.

I reckon Boris is biding his time on this. Jimmy Krankie will make a lot of noise but she can’t do anything yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yup and the SNP never did resolve the problem they have with the EU requirement that new members adopt the Euro. Their suggestion that they keep the pound without approval from the Bank of England was dishonest and lost them the last referendum. Sky recently televised a select committee teams call. The SNP MP was a bit of an old duffer. He had the opportunity to ask Boris questions about issues affecting Scotland and you would have thought he would bring up issues such as the Covid vaccine. Instead he just asked the same question over and over again; ‘when will there be another referendum?’ The answer was ‘never, you had one and lost.’ Sums it up perfectly.

 

[Doonhamer7]

So for those of you who don’t understand, we may joke about you being ‘enemies’, supporting who ever plays England etc but it is nearly always in a humerous way (yes there are dickheads who make it out to be more than it is but at least we don’t burn English holiday homes like the Welsh) but there are over a 1million of us living in England so it can’t be that bad (it’s certainly warmer). We are though not the same: our laws are different and have a different basis, our religion is different - you have a hierarchical church (with the Queen as the head) which is much closer to Catholicism, we have a collective approach based on elders approach (there is no titular head of the CoS), our education is different and was until the SNP damaged it better than England’s (and maybe not as good as Ireland’s), we have always had more collective socialist community value to live (which is everything Thatcherism wasn’t - based on looking after number one. Now I personally feel we should remain together as the UK as part of the EU as despite its bureaucracy As I feel it bought us all together as one.

Unfortunately because of comments like a large number of the above, we are going to see the breakup of the UK. Considering the Unionist Party had more MPs than Labour in the 1950s, it has been a continued drip since then massively exacerbated by Thatcher who never understood us, destroyed our heavy industry (which to be fair was uneconomic due to Underinvestment, the unions, all govt policy in 60s/70s and the Chinese subsidising the production of ships cheaper than we could buy the steel) and never replaced it, saying Scotland was no different to Lincolnshire, trying out to the poll tax in Scotland before the rest of the Uk was probably the worst of all and we could go on. I personally believe she did more for the rise nationalism than anyone since Edward I and didn’t even know she was doing it
So here is why it will happen:
1. The arguments used by the Better Together campaign are all but destroyed - if it was so true why didn’t we stay in the EU
2. Our Prime Minister will get destroyed when he backs the stay campaign, remember his better to invest in Croydon than Scotland articles
3. No credible Scottish Labour Party to keep the left side of politics argument
4. Most of us didn’t want to leave EU
5. I’ve rarely the negative anti-eastern European talk about people in Scotland than you do in England (are we more tolerant?)
6.Nicola Sturgoen is a better leader Wee Alec, I don’t like her myself but the way she has handled COVID has really embarrassed Westminster. At the end of the day if she does something, the you know we are doing the same in 2 days time
7. Unfortunately the Current Tory’s appear more elitist and less connected to normal people than at anytime in history, this looks worse the further you are aware of them

Once Scotland leaves the UK, the NI issue gets a new dynamic as remaining part of England isn’t the same as part of the UK (or whatever it is now called) and the damage that Brexit has caused will force others over to the depart side. As NI very much has a religious element to it (unlike Scotland, where most (not all) bigotry has gone - I mean how archaic does it look that only 30+years ago the biggest sporting institution wouldn’t sign a catholic) the situation will become much more dynamic maybe less a religious reason (but remembering that both sides must still have the means to escalate the violence) as younger people aren’t so concerned about what your religion is.

Then the Welsh issue will rise - as Wales would maybe seen as just a vassal state to England, so this could rise to Welsh nationalism.
I would expect all 3 Celtic nations can then become part of the greater European state (Spain will do its ‘toy throwing out of prom’ but the French and Germans make the real decisions) with all its culture towards the the environmental, workers right and the betterment of everyone and England can then happily become the 51st state of the USA, with its the individual over the community mentality (or worse become like Guam or Puerto Rico).

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Yup and the SNP never did resolve the problem they have with the EU requirement that new members adopt the Euro. Their suggestion that they keep the pound without approval from the Bank of England was dishonest and lost them the last referendum. Sky recently televised a select committee teams call. The SNP MP was a bit of an old duffer. He had the opportunity to ask Boris questions about issues affecting Scotland and you would have thought he would bring up issues such as the Covid vaccine. Instead he just asked the same question over and over again; ‘when will there be another referendum?’ The answer was ‘never, you had one and lost.’ Sums it up perfectly.

The problem the SNP have is like the Brexit party they were a one trick pony. No real policies and no true strategy if they won the argument. The basis for their economy was written on a fag packet and didn't take much scrutiny to dismiss. Since devolution they have not helped their cause. It's the same with covid something good happens take the credit something bad blame Westminster. She's had an easy ride as the money has flowed north to help with the situation if she had had her independence they'd be trotting back down the A1 asking to join the Union the same as before.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Poor you

You dont want taking back control and the issue of sovereignty used as valid reasons for deciding to Leave......even though the overwhelming number of Leave voters ranked taking back control and issues of sovereignty as their main reasons for voting to Leave.
The funny thing is you and a small clique on here are sticking to your entrenched worldview and you dont realise how stupid you sound.
You will never ever understand what a ridiculous position you are digging for yourself.
(why on ear you are still arguing pre referendum issues is beyond stupid anyway considering we have left and the referendum decided the argument)
Great fun for us leavers though looking for a continued giggle.
You lot really are a gift

I think you have a point. But the problem with making 'sovereignty' an absolute, a kind of moral imperative, is that it too easily discounts

a) the extent to which those who supported it, really shared an understanding of what it means and
b) the extent to which those who supported it were aware of the trade-offs it entails.

Sovereignty is a high level concept which most people (Leave or Remain) would find hard to articulate. 'Taking back control' was a clever way of making this appear to be to be simple; not unlike 'Make America Great Again'.

So whereas highly motivated (hard core) Brexiteers could well have been very well aware of a) and b) above, and were willing to pay the price of a), we'll never know how many of the 17 million were. My guess would be about 2 million of them of which you are clearly one.. But few people will admit they were duped. Fair enough, that's democracy (or a version of it), but don't expect the rest of us to be happy to pay the price of a) too. It's bit like having to pick up the tab for someone else's piss-up.

If that sounds 'stupid' then I plead guilty.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

With Jimmy Krankie effectively trying to turn Scotland into Catalonia, has it ever been explained to us mere mortals if England would be better off financially better off if Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland became independent countries?

Although I remember reading somewhere that nearly 30% of the Northern Ireland workforce works indirectly for the British state so that in itself probably rules out independence, that and the religious/political situation?

I have no idea whether England would be better off, without the rest of the Union, or not.

In regards to Scotland, there seems to be a lot of contention around the North Sea gas reserves.
Again I know nothing on the subject, but my gut tells me if the Tory party (in particular) are so keen to keep the country in the Union, then someone somewhere stands to lose a packet if they leave.

 

[NooBHA]

Wtf- how naive and ignorant can you get only 16% of Scots are catholic - so where does this ‘true’ fact come from

Where does the only 16% are Catholics come from ?

Perhaps only 16% identify as practising Catholics but there are a lot more of Catholic Origin.

The knowledge come from ''on the ground people living there'' My family all still live there and the Anti Union Felling amongst people of Catholic origin has not dissipated. They see and live amongst it every day

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So for those of you who don’t understand, we may joke about you being ‘enemies’, supporting who ever plays England etc but it is nearly always in a humerous way (yes there are dickheads who make it out to be more than it is but at least we don’t burn English holiday homes like the Welsh) but there are over a 1million of us living in England so it can’t be that bad (it’s certainly warmer). We are though not the same: our laws are different and have a different basis, our religion is different - you have a hierarchical church (with the Queen as the head) which is much closer to Catholicism, we have a collective approach based on elders approach (there is no titular head of the CoS), our education is different and was until the SNP damaged it better than England’s (and maybe not as good as Ireland’s), we have always had more collective socialist community value to live (which is everything Thatcherism wasn’t - based on looking after number one. Now I personally feel we should remain together as the UK as part of the EU as despite its bureaucracy As I feel it bought us all together as one.

Unfortunately because of comments like a large number of the above, we are going to see the breakup of the UK. Considering the Unionist Party had more MPs than Labour in the 1950s, it has been a continued drip since then massively exacerbated by Thatcher who never understood us, destroyed our heavy industry (which to be fair was uneconomic due to Underinvestment, the unions, all govt policy in 60s/70s and the Chinese subsidising the production of ships cheaper than we could buy the steel) and never replaced it, saying Scotland was no different to Lincolnshire, trying out to the poll tax in Scotland before the rest of the Uk was probably the worst of all and we could go on. I personally believe she did more for the rise nationalism than anyone since Edward I and didn’t even know she was doing it
So here is why it will happen:
1. The arguments used by the Better Together campaign are all but destroyed - if it was so true why didn’t we stay in the EU
2. Our Prime Minister will get destroyed when he backs the stay campaign, remember his better to invest in Croydon than Scotland articles
3. No credible Scottish Labour Party to keep the left side of politics argument
4. Most of us didn’t want to leave EU
5. I’ve rarely the negative anti-eastern European talk about people in Scotland than you do in England (are we more tolerant?)
6.Nicola Sturgoen is a better leader Wee Alec, I don’t like her myself but the way she has handled COVID has really embarrassed Westminster. At the end of the day if she does something, the you know we are doing the same in 2 days time
7. Unfortunately the Current Tory’s appear more elitist and less connected to normal people than at anytime in history, this looks worse the further you are aware of them

Once Scotland leaves the UK, the NI issue gets a new dynamic as remaining part of England isn’t the same as part of the UK (or whatever it is now called) and the damage that Brexit has caused will force others over to the depart side. As NI very much has a religious element to it (unlike Scotland, where most (not all) bigotry has gone - I mean how archaic does it look that only 30+years ago the biggest sporting institution wouldn’t sign a catholic) the situation will become much more dynamic maybe less a religious reason (but remembering that both sides must still have the means to escalate the violence) as younger people aren’t so concerned about what your religion is.

Then the Welsh issue will rise - as Wales would maybe seen as just a vassal state to England, so this could rise to Welsh nationalism.
I would expect all 3 Celtic nations can then become part of the greater European state (Spain will do its ‘toy throwing out of prom’ but the French and Germans make the real decisions) with all its culture towards the the environmental, workers right and the betterment of everyone and England can then happily become the 51st state of the USA, with its the individual over the community mentality (or worse become like Guam or Puerto Rico).

That’s a lot of wishful thinking. The reality is that all EU members (including Spain) would have a veto over Scotland joining. Their position is clear. Also, there is no mechanism for your wishful thinking. The Referendum happened in 2014. There will be no repeat. Your argument is a proxy Remain argument as is much of the talk about break up of the U.K. and is the reason I mentioned earlier that this is simply another Brexit thread.Simply wishing something to be inevitable will not make it so.

 

[Doonhamer7]

Where does the only 16% are Catholics come from ?

Perhaps only 16% identify as practising Catholics but there are a lot more of Catholic Origin.

The knowledge come from ''on the ground people living there'' My family all still live there and the Anti Union Felling amongst people of Catholic origin has not dissipated. They see and live amongst it every day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scotland