[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

Edited it for you.

Altering other people's posts has always struck me as the most pathetic form of debate going, but what the heck - if you really feel that Great Britain is "under or at the mercy of an immense and oppressive force, burden, or pressure" simply because it belongs to an international union then you can't think much of our country. Or are prone to astonishing hyperbole.

Either way, I am reminded of that perceptive definition of the subject at hand... "Brexit is what you get when the spirit of superiority meets the spirit of victimhood". Anyone with an open mind will realise that's completely true.

 

[pastafarian]

The concept of a democracy (the one that was still going before 2016) was that people can choose to change their minds, and in a democracy everyone's voice is valid...so why should anyone that wish to stand against it, be 'undemocratic' - stopping people from doing that (whether by physical means, or telling them online) is, infact, the undemocratic thing.

It isn't about ignoring the 'winning' vote (and here I was thinking it wasn't about winning...) but ensuring that the country could move forward in a united way. The simple fact it, regardless of one side claiming we should 'accept it and move on' is that it just. Wont. Happen. Not all the time several million people (based on the same vote people claim is 'the will of the people') think is a bad idea. THATS the crux of it. The country is divided and no amount of 'accept it and move on' is going to change that. It wouldn't happen if the situation were reversed (if you would then full respect, but you are just one person) but it would still be the same, just the other way around.

I have always said people can change their minds, i have repeatedly said people are fully entitled to campaign to rejoin the EU after we have left. Cant see parliament wanting to revisit this process again for years and years though. But if a party wants to stand on a platform of rejoining the EU in the future, good luck to them. It will be a tough sell .

 

[Grombleton]

I have always said people can change their minds, i have repeatedly said people are fully entitled to campaign to rejoin the EU after we have left. Cant see parliament wanting to revisit this process again for years and years though. But if a party wants to stand on a platform of rejoining the EU in the future, good luck to them. It will be a tough sell .

So why claim they are 'undemocratic loons' only because they are doing it before we have left?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The country is divided, yes, but no more divided than it was when bl**dy Thatcher won a general election. That's politics.

You say bl**dy Thatcher but support the same party in power now!

 

[GT49er]

So why claim they are 'undemocratic loons' only because they are doing it before we have left?

If you check back through this thread, you will find that 'loons' (usually in conjunction with 'swivel-eyed') is the vocabulary of the more ..... how shall we put it? .....the more dogmatic? more entitled? more uncompromising? more enraged, furious? more thinking Bob Geldoff screaming obscenities through a megaphone is wonderful?.....sort of remainers.

Some of whom are prominent on here, generally not doing any favours to the cause of the more reasonable remainers. I can't ask, 'Which sort are you?' - I'd just be deluged with a load of 'It's not me - it's the thick leavers'. C'est la vie.

 

[GT49er]

You say bl**dy Thatcher but support the same party in power now!

Bloody Thatcher isn't though. Good riddance to bad cess.

'There's no such thing as society' - there bloody isn't now, thanks to her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1NyWbhCxZE

 

[Grombleton]

If you check back through this thread, you will find that 'loons' (usually in conjunction with 'swivel-eyed') is the vocabulary of the more ..... how shall we put it? .....the more dogmatic? more entitled? more uncompromising? more enraged, furious? more thinking Bob Geldoff screaming obscenities through a megaphone is wonderful?.....sort of remainers.

Some of whom are prominent on here, generally not doing any favours to the cause of the more reasonable remainers. I can't ask, 'Which sort are you?' - I'd just be deluged with a load of 'It's not me - it's the thick leavers'. C'est la vie.

No-one is coming out of this smelling of roses. I personally maintain that I voted remain and whilst the vote went against my personal preference, i'd wait to see if go though before we see the cluster**** appear - though it doesnt stop anyone from voicing their opinion against it if they so wish.

For every remainer there's a leaver. and for every leaver there's a remainer. Everyone has a voice and everyone should be willing to be called on it - as long as they can back it up - that's where it tends to fall and people *coughPpfcough* fall back on slogans and straplines rather than voice an opinion.

 

[pastafarian]

So why claim they are 'undemocratic loons' only because they are doing it before we have left?

Because they are.

I guess you would have no issue if your chosen party won a general election and before having the opportunity to form a government and accept the election decision the powers that be said “ actually sod that, don’t like that result, lets do the election again until we get the right result”

Would you have been happy if remain had won the referendum and that voting decision to remain had been ignored with the Tories doing the opposite and taking us out of the EU instead.

I think not.

 

[Simster]

You can answer your own question.

Repeat after me.

The UK voted to Leave the EU, that decision should have been respected and accepted from the outset, acting like an undemocratic loon and weasel
with attempts to pursue and support a course of action to revoke the decision to Leave, attempting to remain instead and therefore ignoring the Leaving decision given by the referendum was rightly defeated.

Go on, I know you can do it

I'm getting pretty tired of your narrow definition of the word "democratic" because it is unadulterated horseshit, as are your boring claims of treason and weasel towards anyone sane enough to see how this has played out as it has.

Quite simply, a Brexit with us remaining in the customs union and/or single market would have seen this sail through parliament by Christmas 2016. And let's be clear, Farage talked about 52-48 not being the end of the matter had the vote gone the other way, Gove said we wouldn't leave the single market, and Johnson was a remainer for decades. If you want to refer to weasels, take a look at the cheer leaders on your own side first.

The vote was 52-48, so not a ringing endorsement of leaving by any stretch. As such, any solution should simply have been a very loose Brexit rather than the extreme version we are now seeing. If you really think a no deal Brexit should ever have been entertained, then a confirmatory referendum should certainly have been undertaken.

As it happens, I have sympathy with your view that Brexit should have happened without obstruction, but your own side caused it by ramming through a Brexit that was nothing like the one we were promised. And now we are all subjected to gloating brexiteers crowd funding the Big Ben bong. This is seriously happening on the watch of a clueless perma-liar who in all seriousness talks about uniting the country one breath later.

And this, pasta, is why you can shove your "weasel" drivel up your fcking arse.

 

[pastafarian]

I'm getting pretty tired of your narrow definition of the word "democratic" because it is unadulterated horseshit, as are your boring claims of treason and weasel towards anyone sane enough to see how this has played out as it has.

Quite simply, a Brexit with us remaining in the customs union and/or single market would have seen this sail through parliament by Christmas 2016. And let's be clear, Farage talked about 52-48 not being the end of the matter had the vote gone the other way, Gove said we wouldn't leave the single market, and Johnson was a remainer for decades. If you want to refer to weasels, take a look at the cheer leaders on your own side first.

The vote was 52-48, so not a ringing endorsement of leaving by any stretch. As such, any solution should simply have been a very loose Brexit rather than the extreme version we are now seeing. If you really think a no deal Brexit should ever have been entertained, then a confirmatory referendum should certainly have been undertaken.

As it happens, I have sympathy with your view that Brexit should have happened without obstruction, but your own side caused it by ramming through a Brexit that was nothing like the one we were promised. And now we are all subjected to gloating brexiteers crowd funding the Big Ben bong. This is seriously happening on the watch of a clueless perma-liar who in all seriousness talks about uniting the country one breath later.

And this, pasta, is why you can shove your "weasel" drivel up your fcking arse.

Im pleased you at least agree the decision to leave should not have been obstructed and therefore that the end result of the decision to leave should be the UK leaving as per the vote.......you know, accepting the decision to leave and not remaining instead.
A few of your fellow remainers (the weasels in question) believe the opposite.

 

[Grombleton]

Because they are.

I guess you would have no issue if your chosen party won a general election and before having the opportunity to form a government and accept the election decision the powers that be said “ actually sod that, don’t like that result, lets do the election again until we get the right result”

Would you have been happy if remain had won the referendum and that voting decision to remain had been ignored with the Tories doing the opposite and taking us out of the EU instead.

I think not.

Wrong. I wouldn't have an issue with that, because (and I hate to tell you this) - that's democracy. It isn't democracy when you feel like it, or when you shift the goalposts. Everyone is entitled to their view as well as everyone is entitled to be challenged to that view - regardless of when and where. I couldn't care less if it was 20 minutes or 20 years after. It was the 'Leave' who have repeatedly used the 'you lost, get over it' trope.

Democracy rules at any point, not at some arbitrary time made up by a portion of society.

 

[Simster]

Im pleased you at least agree the decision to leave should not have been obstructed and therefore that the end result of the decision to leave should be the UK leaving as per the vote.......you know, accepting the decision to leave and not remaining instead.
A few of your fellow remainers (the weasels in question) believe the opposite.

Where's your understanding that YOU LEAVERS are at fault for that in part? You know, leaving with broad concensus in 2016 rather than ramming through the current crock of shit or risking no deal.

You're no different from the remainer weasels you speak of.

 

[GT49er]

For every remainer there's a leaver. and for every leaver there's a remainer.

Well, actually not quite. For every remainer there's one point something leaver - hence the result of the referendum. Apart from that, fair enough. I respect - but don't agree with - the views of remainers. I just detest the remainers that think it is their God-given right to hurl all manner of abuse at all leavers. And, to be fair, some of your fellow remainers on here have really let your side of the argument down with their outpourings of vituperation and bile.

 

[pastafarian]

Quite simply, a Brexit with us remaining in the customs union and/or single market would have seen this sail through parliament by Christmas 2016. And let's be clear, .

Where's your understanding that YOU LEAVERS are at fault for that in part? You know, leaving with broad concensus in 2016 rather than ramming through the current crock of shit or risking no deal.

You're no different from the remainer weasels you speak of.

On a technical note, im fairly certain nothing would have sailed through by xmas 2016
The Gina Miller case about stopping notification of our leaving unless there was an act of parliament (in the desperate hope parliament would never agree to it) did not end until Jan 2017. No withdrawal negotiations could start until the notice was handed in.

I wonder what the broad consensus of remaining would have been if remain had won? What sort of concessions would the 52% remainers have offered the losing Leave voters.....leave the single market? End the primacy of the ECJ? Out of the customs union? No more free movement? Return the pooled sovereignty decisions back to Westminster from Brussels? No more payments to the EU budget?

Go on, pick a couple

Wrong. I wouldn't have an issue with that, because (and I hate to tell you this) - that's democracy. It isn't democracy when you feel like it, or when you shift the goalposts. Everyone is entitled to their view as well as everyone is entitled to be challenged to that view - regardless of when and where. I couldn't care less if it was 20 minutes or 20 years after. It was the 'Leave' who have repeatedly used the 'you lost, get over it' trope.

Democracy rules at any point, not at some arbitrary time made up by a portion of society.

Really.?
You expect people to believe if Remain had won the Referendum and the Tories had said screw the referendum vote lets leave instead , you would have simply rolled over and said " fair enough, thats democracy"

do me a favour

 

[Grombleton]

Really.?
You expect people to believe if Remain had won the Referendum and the Tories had said screw the referendum vote lets leave instead , you would have simply rolled over and said " fair enough, thats democracy"

do me a favour

I would have, yes. If you can't comprehend that then that's your issue that people can't conform to one all-encompassing message, much like your rulers want you to. It's more your insecurity over the issue that's being projected.

 

[pastafarian]

I would have, yes. If you can't comprehend that then that's your issue that people can't conform to one all-encompassing message, much like your rulers want you to. It's more your insecurity over the issue that's being projected.

All you have done is state a democratic vote is meaningless and there is no point in having them in the first place as you are perfectly happy for democratic winning votes to be ignored in all occasions and perfectly fine with the powers that be saying, "i dont give a hoot what the people voted, lets simply ignore them"
Every single vote whether its a referendum or a general election is now pointless under your preferred system of so called democracy (which isnt democracy at all).
You are damn right i dont comprehend your thinking....... i would never want to conform to it either.

 

[Klaas]

Well, actually not quite. For every remainer there's one point something leaver - hence the result of the referendum. Apart from that, fair enough. I respect - but don't agree with - the views of remainers. I just detest the remainers that think it is their God-given right to hurl all manner of abuse at all leavers. And, to be fair, some of your fellow remainers on here have really let your side of the argument down with their outpourings of vituperation and bile.

Not bothered in the slightest by racists and thugs on the leaver side though if your post count on criticising remainers = many VS your post count on criticising leavers = zero is anything to go by.

 

[Lever]

You can answer your own question.

Repeat after me.

The UK voted to Leave the EU, that decision should have been respected and accepted from the outset, acting like an undemocratic loon and weasel
with attempts to pursue and support a course of action to revoke the decision to Leave, attempting to remain instead and therefore ignoring the Leaving decision given by the referendum was rightly defeated.

Go on, I know you can do it

More empty, aggressive rhetoric that fails to answer my question.
Cheer up Mr Grumpy, your Brexit is on its way.
But you can't stop sceptics from scrutinising and criticising what they fear may well do damage to the people of this country....
That's democracy and no one has to repeat your bombastic outpouring or be oppressed by your divisive mindset no matter how much that irks you.

 

[nicko31]

No border down the Irish Sea? The reality...…………..

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...post-brexit-checks-for-northern-irish-traders

Cripes - anyone who didn't know better would think that our PM is a liar!

Little by little each of Johnson's lies is being exposed, any responsible PM wouldn't have done this. He lied to the DUP, lied to public and he'll lie again and again...

BTW, what's happened to the promise that no one will be let into the country in future unless they had a job offer of £30k? These lent Labour votes are already been betrayed and we're only weeks after the election

 

[GT49er]

Not bothered in the slightest by racists and thugs on the leaver side though if your post count on criticising remainers = many VS your post count on criticising leavers = zero is anything to go by.

Whataboutery - and stereotyping - all in one short post. You'll be proud of that effort.