[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

Impressive how few people (basically none?) will condemn the abuse John Mann got (who is on the opposite side of the political spectrum to me btw).

You seem to think you are the "good guys". I'm not so sure that is true to be honest.

 

[Ernest]

You need a better scriptwriter. One over five years old.

Says a fool quoting something over TWENTY years old, back to school for you and don't mess with the BIG boys

 

[dingodan]

Exactly.

View attachment 116352

That's a decent example to be fair.

Someone made a poster about immigration numbers.

All you see is a persons skin color.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What is it about remainers and a person's skin colour? They seem obsessed with it. Perhaps it is a closet racism that makes them support an imperial EU. Well a BREXIT GB doesn't care about a person's skin colour. Brexiteers are of every colour and creed as opposed to the overwhelmingly white ostensibly one million marching against freedom yesterday.

Look again. I saw Sikhs, Muslims and all different skin hues amongst the protestors yesterday.

 

[Hampster Gull]

What a load of old bollox that is.

Yep. It could feel to some he is protesting too much.

London, our largest and most cosmopolitan city voted overwhelmingly to remain.

 

[Stat Brother]

Well, perhaps if our MEPs could propose legislation, that would be a good start.

A good start would be getting them all to turn up for work.

It's always been tough to take an anti EU, beaurocrat, stance from a man balls deep in the trough, the very epitome of stealing a living.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Thank f*ck we can kick them out at.

(MEPs are not allowed to propose legislation)

That hasn't answered the point at all. You can't kick the HoL out and they can propose amendments. MEPs are democratically elected to consider legislation in front of them and vote against it if they don't like it. The very definition of democracy.

What do you think of the recent legislation brought in by Hilary Benn and the amendment proposed by Letwin?

 

[abc]

Having read the last so many pages (lost count) since I left this thread yesterday afternoon, it is quite shocking how much hate, bile, and political entrenchment they contain. Far, far too few posts offer any form of constructive debate or any genuine consideration of other peoples' views or circumstances. Furthermore, most people are still arguing about the rights or wrongs of the referendum decision rather than considering where, as a now divided country and peoples, we are now and how we move forward. If that's not enough, many will only blindly follow party political lines rather than rise above a Parliament filled with MPs (of all colours) that have lost the confidence and support of most of the country, regardless of where they sit on Brexit.

This is our country and our future. Abuse, an inability to listen to the views of others or find compromise is getting us nowhere. Its a cliché, but we need some love in the debate. Please.

 

[Hampster Gull]

A good start would be getting them all to turn up for work.

It's always been tough to take an anti EU, beaurocrat, stance from a man balls deep in the trough, the very epitome of stealing a living.

Indeed. they stake a pay check, the take the expenses, they take the pension. Given their stance feels immoral. But most of them are chancers

 

[Hampster Gull]

That hasn't answered the point at all. You can't kick the HoL out and they can propose amendments. MEPs are democratically elected to consider legislation in front of them and vote against it if they don't like it. The very definition of democracy.

What do you think of the recent legislation brought in by Hilary Benn and the amendment proposed by Letwin?

And we do have representation in preparing the legislative agenda....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well, perhaps if our MEPs could propose legislation, that would be a good start.

Most legislation needs to be proposed by the European Commission and approved by the Council of the European Union and European Parliament in order to become law.

The European Commission consists of the 28 heads of government elected by each respective country, and the Council by a nominated representative of those countries by those heads. Johnson has only been elected by his constituents and Tory party members, so you could call that undemocratic, I suppose.

 

[dingodan]

That hasn't answered the point at all. You can't kick the HoL out and they can propose amendments. MEPs are democratically elected to consider legislation in front of them and vote against it if they don't like it. The very definition of democracy.

What do you think of the recent legislation brought in by Hilary Benn and the amendment proposed by Letwin?

I hate the legislation brought by Hilary Benn and Letwin. But I respect the fact that they are elected officials, and I am glad they have the right to propose legislation, even if I don't agree with it.

MEPs don't make laws. The Commission do. Let me know when the Commission election is so I can vote to remove them.

Can't you just say, "Yes, the people who make the laws aren't elected, but I am Ok with that".

I never defended the HoL by the way, and our elected officials can always propose to remove them if we tell them to.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Having read the last so many pages (lost count) since I left this thread yesterday afternoon, it is quite shocking how much hate, bile, and political entrenchment they contain. Far, far too few posts offer any form of constructive debate or any genuine consideration of other peoples' views or circumstances. Furthermore, most people are still arguing about the rights or wrongs of the referendum decision rather than considering where, as a now divided country and peoples, we are now and how we move forward. If that's not enough, many will only blindly follow party political lines rather than rise above a Parliament filled with MPs (of all colours) that have lost the confidence and support of most of the country, regardless of where they sit on Brexit.

This is our country and our future. Abuse, an inability to listen to the views of others or find compromise is getting us nowhere. Its a cliché, but we need some love in the debate. Please.

I think the basic problem is that 'Leave' and 'Remain' are diametrically opposite.

That means by their very definition that there isn't a compromise that isn't one or the other

 

[Hampster Gull]

Having read the last so many pages (lost count) since I left this thread yesterday afternoon, it is quite shocking how much hate, bile, and political entrenchment they contain. Far, far too few posts offer any form of constructive debate or any genuine consideration of other peoples' views or circumstances. Furthermore, most people are still arguing about the rights or wrongs of the referendum decision rather than considering where, as a now divided country and peoples, we are now and how we move forward. If that's not enough, many will only blindly follow party political lines rather than rise above a Parliament filled with MPs (of all colours) that have lost the confidence and support of most of the country, regardless of where they sit on Brexit.

This is our country and our future. Abuse, an inability to listen to the views of others or find compromise is getting us nowhere. Its a cliché, but we need some love in the debate. Please.

You talk about division the. Peddle your usual line. I don’t see much how debate about the rights and wrongs of a referendum decision, more about the narrative peddled to get the votes (simplest negotiation ever, £350m, Turkey entry, take back control, blah blah blah). Many will follow party lines? That is not how people are viewing the issue, it’s transcending party lines. A Parliament lost the confidence of most of the country? They are doing their duty, it’s not about getting things done as quickly as possible because many are bored of it.

Parking that, yes, I agree, respect has been lost. The way through it is take the deal back to the country, that deal or remain. Any other route will leave this country split for decades and will not lead to healing

 

[dingodan]

The European Commission consists of the 28 heads of government elected by each respective country, and the Council by a nominated representative of those countries by those heads. Johnson has only been elected by his constituents and Tory party members, so you could call that undemocratic, I suppose.

No, that's not correct.

The Commissioners are proposed by the Council of the European Union, on the basis of suggestions made by the national governments, and then appointed by the European Council after the approval of the European Parliament.

They can be "approved" (and not by us). What they can't be is chosen. Nor can they be removed.

We can go round and round like this. I am advocating something not all that remarkable. That lawmakers should be elected by the people who they will live under the laws they make. They should stand on a platform of what they propose to do, and the people should decide to elect them or not on that basis.

That's what we have in the UK. It's not what we have in the EU. That's why I would prefer us to leave the EU and be governed by those we elect.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Having read the last so many pages (lost count) since I left this thread yesterday afternoon, it is quite shocking how much hate, bile, and political entrenchment they contain. Far, far too few posts offer any form of constructive debate or any genuine consideration of other peoples' views or circumstances. Furthermore, most people are still arguing about the rights or wrongs of the referendum decision rather than considering where, as a now divided country and peoples, we are now and how we move forward. If that's not enough, many will only blindly follow party political lines rather than rise above a Parliament filled with MPs (of all colours) that have lost the confidence and support of most of the country, regardless of where they sit on Brexit.

This is our country and our future. Abuse, an inability to listen to the views of others or find compromise is getting us nowhere. Its a cliché, but we need some love in the debate. Please.

Good post. I think we actually have to get away from the thought that we have to stick by a narrow referendum result from so long ago. In "Agile" theory there is the expression "pivot without guilt or mercy". It basically means that if a company tries something and finds it not working, ruthlessly change direction to something else and try that. That is the key to success in business these days, and it should be for the country.

I guess I am saying that I believe a second referendum would settle matters with both sides perhaps accepting the result better, especially if Leave won again. In Switzerland they often have repeat referenda amongst their many instances. Can we show some of their maturity?

 

[Hampster Gull]

MEPs don't make laws. The Commission do. Let me know when the Commission election is so I can vote to remove them.to.

Not true.

The European Parliament (elected by EU citizens) and the Council of Ministers (representing national governments and attended by national ministers) amend the draft proposals and vote on whether these proposals should become EU law.

The Commission propose legislation and consists of 28 members, one from each member state.

 

[ROKERITE]

I think the basic problem is that 'Leave' and 'Remain' are diametrically opposite.

That means by their very definition that there isn't a compromise that isn't one or the other

We have been fortunate to live in a democracy. Win or lose both sides have accepted the result, be it an election or a referendum.
The only reason this country has descended into this ugly abyss is because one side refused to accept it had lost the referendum. Democracy depends on the acceptance of defeat by the losing side. Instead right from 23/6/16 the losing side have attempted to thwart the result's implementation. Leave won despite all the big guns being lined up against it, even £9,000,000 of the taxpayers own money. Yet still the cries of Leave cheated, Leave lied, leavers are racists, leavers are thick; anything but accept that a majority of the people who voted did so because they wanted to leave The EU.
There was no need for compromise, just respect for democracy.

 

[Hampster Gull]

We have been fortunate to live in a democracy. Win or lose both sides have accepted the result, be it an election or a referendum.
The only reason this country has descended into this ugly abyss is because one side refused to accept it had lost the referendum. Democracy depends on the acceptance of defeat by the losing side. Instead right from 23/6/16 the losing side have attempted to thwart the result's implementation. Leave won despite all the big guns being lined up against it, even £9,000,000 of the taxpayers own money. Yet still the cries of Leave cheated, Leave lied, leavers are racists, leavers are thick; anything but accept that a majority of the people who voted did so because they wanted to leave The EU.
There was no need for compromise, just respect for democracy.

That’s not true. For example the ERG voted down Mays leave deal three times.

 

[BadFish]

We have been fortunate to live in a democracy. Win or lose both sides have accepted the result, be it an election or a referendum.
The only reason this country has descended into this ugly abyss is because one side refused to accept it had lost the referendum. Democracy depends on the acceptance of defeat by the losing side. Instead right from 23/6/16 the losing side have attempted to thwart the result's implementation. Leave won despite all the big guns being lined up against it, even £9,000,000 of the taxpayers own money. Yet still the cries of Leave cheated, Leave lied, leavers are racists, leavers are thick; anything but accept that a majority of the people who voted did so because they wanted to leave The EU.
There was no need for compromise, just respect for democracy.

You got into this ugly mess because the 'winners' had/have no clue of what to do next to carry out the will of the people. If Brexit had been as easy as they suggested at the time this ugly mess would have been sorted a long time ago.

Don't get me wrong here, I live a long way away and aside from the embarrassment of the whole saga engulfing my home country if effects me very little. Since the vote i have been asking the same question to which I have still not seen or heard a useful answer. "What is the plan now?"

"no if's no buts" I seem to remember hearing not so long ago.