[Politics] Brexit

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I'm hurt by the many childish insults from Remooooooaners however I am then cheered up by the fact I won and you lost

So what shall we talk about here after Oct 31st?Even football?

Well said sir! This, I believe, is the style of debate much favoured in senior common rooms across the world's leading universities. It's rare to find such sophistication outside of those ivory towers,

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

The PM will bring back a deal, everyone will be agreed that they are happy with it. Remain MP's who have said, "you don't want a deal, go and get a deal because no deal isn't an option", will now say, "you don't want a deal, this deal must be a trick, we don't trust you, we won't support this deal, it's a trap".

Begs the question, under what circumstances were they ever going to vote for a deal?

None. They want a deal about as much as they want no deal, basically, as much as they want Brexit in the first place. A deal represents the end of the line and us leaving, which means all the rubbish about "we must get a deal" was always disingenuous.

Those on here who want to remain only need to ask themselves, how would you feel about a deal getting through? I'm sure this doesn't apply to all of you, but I would think a lot of you would feel that a deal would be disheartening, because it would mean that Brexit gets done, and no deal would be a better thing for us to be facing because that is so opposed that maybe it's a dead end for Brexit.

I've always felt that that's how MP's feel, I think that's how they have been behaving, and I think it's pretty reckless and the irony is that all along they have been the ones demanding a deal and questioning whether leave MP's ever really wanted one. When in reality the people most opposed to a deal have seemed to me to be remainers (not all of them, but the most die-hard/hard-line ones) who want Brexit to be prevented by way of a deal never having been found.

Just want it done with now with a deal.

So welcome this.

But you think it will just be the remainers that will scupper it?

Too many people have a lot to gain with no deal, they will be just as likely to stop it.

 

[Lever]

The PM will bring back a deal, everyone will be agreed that they are happy with it. Remain MP's who have said, "you don't want a deal, go and get a deal because no deal isn't an option", will now say, "you don't want a deal, this deal must be a trick, we don't trust you, we won't support this deal, it's a trap".

Begs the question, under what circumstances were they ever going to vote for a deal?

None. They want a deal about as much as they want no deal, basically, as much as they want Brexit in the first place. A deal represents the end of the line and us leaving, which means all the rubbish about "we must get a deal" was always disingenuous.

Those on here who want to remain only need to ask themselves, how would you feel about a deal getting through? I'm sure this doesn't apply to all of you, but I would think a lot of you would feel that a deal would be disheartening, because it would mean that Brexit gets done, and no deal would be a better thing for us to be facing because that is so opposed that maybe it's a dead end for Brexit.

I've always felt that that's how MP's feel, I think that's how they have been behaving, and I think it's pretty reckless and the irony is that all along they have been the ones demanding a deal and questioning whether leave MP's ever really wanted one. When in reality the people most opposed to a deal have seemed to me to be remainers (not all of them, but the most die-hard/hard-line ones) who want Brexit to be prevented by way of a deal never having been found.

Worth a listen to counter your argument.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKgswH-oVhI

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

It is perfectly possible to vote for this deal, but have a mandatory extension request amendment attached to give time for the associated legislation, so that untrustworthy Johnson can't pull a fast one.

I hope they vote for the deal, along with the necessary safeguards against any *no deal* dirty tricks.

 

[Klaas]

That's a thick ignorant reply from you a typical arrogant i"m better than you reply get over yourself the vote was to leave and that's what's going to happen
Regards
DL

Boohoo. Treat yourself to some time watching your racist youtube channels you ****.

 

[dingodan]

Just want it done with now with a deal.

So welcome this.

But you think it will just be the remainers that will scupper it?

Too many people have a lot to gain with no deal, they will be just as likely to stop it.

Nobody has much to gain with no deal as far as I can tell.

The reality is that no deal doesn't have sufficient support. I've been accused of being some kind of hard line extremist on here, but actually, as someone who would probably prefer a no deal (no not because I'm fine with all the horror, I just believe the horror is greatly exaggerated), I can see the need for compromise.

What we need is something which satasfies both sides and allows us to leave in as orderly way as possible. I think it's possible to satisfy both sides, with some pragmatism and compromise on both sides.

There has been some disagreement on what represents compromise which could satisfy both sides, and the proof will be in the pudding. But I recognize that my ideal Brexit (a "clean break" or whatever you would like to call it) doesn't command sufficient support, and others should recognize that their ideal Brexit (i.e. Remain) also doesn't command sufficient support.

In some ways where we have arrived at is where we should have started, respecting the needs of both the EU and the UK and trying to work out a challenging yet neccessary compromise. Without wishing to seem disrespectful towards the EU, their approach has up until now seemed to me to be more interested in making Brexit seem as difficult as possible, for political reasons, rather than genuinely being interested in getting it done in as healthy a way as possible. Hopefully that is what has changed here, but we will have to see what we end up with at the end of this part of negotiations to find out what has changed.

 

[pb21]

It is perfectly possible to vote for this deal, but have a mandatory extension request amendment attached to give time for the associated legislation, so that untrustworthy Johnson can't pull a fast one.

I hope they vote for the deal, along with the necessary safeguards against any *no deal* dirty tricks.

The EU could attach a condition that if a deal is agreed we either leave with that deal on 31st October if UK legislation is passed or a short extension is applied.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The EU could attach a condition that if a deal is agreed we either leave with that deal on 31st October if UK legislation is passed or a short extension is applied.

Sensible. I hope this is done. Then we vote for the deal, satisfy the cursed referendum, and move on to the battle to join EFTA.

 

[dingodan]

Worth a listen to counter your argument.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKgswH-oVhI

Actually my post is a (more detailed) response to this video which was posted earlier and I responded to it.

It's the excuse to be used by remain MP's when they vote down a deal which both sides have agreed to.

There is no way that the PM would agree a deal, pass it in the HoC, then not effect the deal. I believe that the PM has always been willing if neccessary to go ahead with no deal, but to do it this way (and with it no longer being neccessary) would mean he was done as PM. Even loyal conservatives (MPs and voters alike) would recoil at that kind of behavior. It would be a transparent deception, nobody likes that.

You would have to believe he wants No Deal more than he wants to be PM, and nobody believes that.

 

[dingodan]

Need it must be stopped. That is what is best for the country and best for the people. A true patriot would see that.

Right. So just to confirm, you don't want a deal.

I think there are a lot of remainers who agree with you, but very few who would admit it.

 

[beorhthelm]

Too many people have a lot to gain with no deal, they will be just as likely to stop it.

we've established in the last couple of years that no one benefits from no deal. a new bogeyman has appear in guise of "backers of Johnson", this group can quietly adjust their position to the new reality. the markets have been very happy about the current situation.

a few hardcore remain MPs, hardcore brexiteers and their supporters may oppose any deal. seems the vast majority, MPs and public fall into either leavers who'll accept a deal or remainers who'd rather get on to the next part. loads of time for it all to blow up of course, change direction again.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

we've established in the last couple of years that no one benefits from no deal. a new bogeyman has appear in guise of "backers of Johnson", this group can quietly adjust their position to the new reality. the markets have been very happy about the current situation.

a few hardcore remain MPs, hardcore brexiteers and their supporters may oppose any deal. seems the vast majority, MPs and public fall into either leavers who'll accept a deal or remainers who'd rather get on to the next part. loads of time for it all to blow up of course, change direction again.

You don’t think anyone has nothing to gain from pushing for a no deal?

Brexit Party for a start, pushing for no deal keeps them in business, why do you think we are seeing them changing the view now a deal looks doable.

Johnson’s own sister admits his backers are likely to benefit

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Nobody has much to gain with no deal as far as I can tell.

The reality is that no deal doesn't have sufficient support. I've been accused of being some kind of hard line extremist on here, but actually, as someone who would probably prefer a no deal (no not because I'm fine with all the horror, I just believe the horror is greatly exaggerated), I can see the need for compromise.

What we need is something which satasfies both sides and allows us to leave in as orderly way as possible. I think it's possible to satisfy both sides, with some pragmatism and compromise on both sides.

There has been some disagreement on what represents compromise which could satisfy both sides, and the proof will be in the pudding. But I recognize that my ideal Brexit (a "clean break" or whatever you would like to call it) doesn't command sufficient support, and others should recognize that their ideal Brexit (i.e. Remain) also doesn't command sufficient support.

In some ways where we have arrived at is where we should have started, respecting the needs of both the EU and the UK and trying to work out a challenging yet neccessary compromise. Without wishing to seem disrespectful towards the EU, their approach has up until now seemed to me to be more interested in making Brexit seem as difficult as possible, for political reasons, rather than genuinely being interested in getting it done in as healthy a way as possible. Hopefully that is what has changed here, but we will have to see what we end up with at the end of this part of negotiations to find out what has changed.

No deal is a disaster, it puts us on the back foot for the same negotiations we will have with or without a deal.

We’ve seen the states give zero ****s over the UK this week over 1 person, how do you think they will act with a trade deal.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I will say though, if Johnson gets a deal and then tries to weasel out of it, there will be a fair-sized backlash against him within his own party, which he may not be able to survive as PM.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

...and others should recognize that their ideal Brexit (i.e. Remain) also doesn't command sufficient support.

.

I don't believe that this is true. I believe that the majority of people, now better informed of the details / implications of staying / leaving, wish for us to remain members of the EU.

Given a FREE vote, outside of party loyalties, I believe that the same is true of Parliament also.

 

[dingodan]

No deal is a disaster, it puts us on the back foot for the same negotiations we will have with or without a deal.

We’ve seen the states give zero ****s over the UK this week over 1 person, how do you think they will act with a trade deal.

First the waiving of diplomatic immunity isn't something which is ever done easily, it's also very different from trade negotiations which are very pragmatic in nature, and apolitical in detail. Not a worthwhile comparison.

Actually the first thing which would happen if we had no deal with the EU would be, strangely, a deal with the EU, done as quickly as possible. That's one of the reasons that No Deal has seemed the only way forward, it's the quickest route to a deal (maybe that has now changed).

But I get it, people are incredibly opposed to no deal, and not without some justification, although not as much as perhaps they think. But anyway, perceptions matter and the perception is that it would be the end of the world, lead to the deaths of thousands (literally that has been said) etc, so Ok, I recognize that No Deal is never going to have sufficient support to get done with people's blessing and a positive attitude. Like I said, I recognize the need to compromise and do a deal, if only for the sake of allaying peoples fears, even if I personally believe those fears are far greater than is justified. I don't want people massively upset and fearful. I hope also that there are remainers out there who also don't want voters to feel that the result of the vote has been ignored and democracy thrown out either. Like I said, compromise and pragmatism is what is required.

 

[beorhthelm]

You don’t think anyone has nothing to gain from pushing for a no deal?

Brexit Party for a start, pushing for no deal keeps them in business, why do you think we are seeing them changing the view now a deal looks doable.

Johnson’s own sister admits his backers are likely to benefit

Brexit party might like to bleat, who's interested if a deal is done? the infamous backers dont seem to have very large position judging by net short interest in £/$ (about $8bn i read). i dont buy a group want to drive through no deal over a deal. the reports about this are very sketchy, most shorts are for companies with problems regardless. they'll make their money in the market either way. politically (and financially) Johnson and friends gain the most from a deal and quick election giving 5 years in government with a realistic chance of a majority. no deal makes an election risky.

 

[Goliath]

I don't believe that this is true. I believe that the majority of people, now better informed of the details / implications of staying / leaving, wish for us to remain members of the EU.

Given a FREE vote, outside of party loyalties, I believe that the same is true of Parliament also.

I hate it when remainers say they believe people have now changed their minds and would vote remain when they have no proof.It's just what they think.Did you carry out your own extensive poll?

It makes more sense that the leave side would get more votes as project fear turned out to be a hoax and also everyone has seen what a bunch of sarcastic dicks the EU are.
Germany are on the verge of a recession and we are doing fairly well.Project fear was bull.

 

[Lever]

Actually my post is a (more detailed) response to this video which was posted earlier and I responded to it.

It's the excuse to be used by remain MP's when they vote down a deal which both sides have agreed to.

There is no way that the PM would agree a deal, pass it in the HoC, then not effect the deal. I believe that the PM has always been willing if neccessary to go ahead with no deal, but to do it this way (and with it no longer being neccessary) would mean he was done as PM. Even loyal conservatives (MPs and voters alike) would recoil at that kind of behavior. It would be a transparent deception, nobody likes that.

You would have to believe he wants No Deal more than he wants to be PM, and nobody believes that.

Let's see, you have complete faith in the integrity of the mendacious PM in this matter, right? You believe that somehow underhand tactics will rebound against him.... and you think those that are sceptical about his plans are being disingenuous.
Oh, okay.... let's hope you're right, but I'll be fortified against you being wrong.

 

[dingodan]

I don't believe that this is true. I believe that the majority of people, now better informed of the details / implications of staying / leaving, wish for us to remain members of the EU.

Given a FREE vote, outside of party loyalties, I believe that the same is true of Parliament also.

It's always been true of parliamentarians. Never has there been a day when the majority of parliament wanted us to leave.

Suffient support actually means support sufficient that it wouldn't lead to a very significant portion of the population angry and upset.

You cannot get support from leave voters for remaining, and you cannot get support from remain voters for no deal. I believe you can get support from both sides for a deal which respects the outcome of the vote, and represents a calm and stable process the result of which is a relationship with the EU which is similar in spirit to what we have now, but which doesn't involve being tied together in areas or ways which we would rather not. A voluntary and respectful relationship.

A lot has been made of the idea that being in the EU is a force for harmony and cooperation between nations. I actually believe that a voluntary and respectful relationship is a more effective force for harmony and cooperation between nations than entangling alliances and an all-or-nothing tie-in where some nations can make decisions for others.