[Politics] Brexit

[clapham_gull]

Blimey, Boycott and 17million will be held responsible for world war III because they believe in Britain i have heard it all now.

Not a cricket fan but he is a legend.

Watch this and I challenge you not to agree.

https://youtu.be/y7QyFEnqwCk

Challenged.

And there was me trying not to stereotype no deal leavers as a bit racist with a fixation with WWII.

Don't make it so hard. This is the man who thinks he should "black up" to get a knighthood.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/geoffrey-boycott-racism-blacking-up-11028576

Idiot.

 

[Baldseagull]

I agree



At least you have confirmed it is indeed regaining sovereign powers, some of your fellow travellers think no sovereign powers have been ceded to Brussels by insisting there are no sovereign powers to take back control of.



On the contrary,I fully recognise the misinformation and scare tactics from the gov (eg treasury emergency budget) and the shameful use of foreign influence (Obama) that helped scare people into voting remain.



More misrepresenting bullshit from you. I simply said if there had been a referendum on appeasement in 1937, and appeasement had won then that vote should have been respected. Voters in 1937 would not have had a history of the 20th century book in front of them. All you have done is confirm yet again you don’t believe referendum votes should be respected if you do not agree with them.



What is most likely, and what happens with many trade deals is that visa regulations are liberalised and the process of obtaining a visa for tier groups that we see a benefit in allowing is simplified. Have zero problem with qualified Indians getting visas under a more liberalised system for study and in areas of work where we identify a shortage, as we currently do. This is what a managed migration system should do. Beats the hell out of letting people, who want to live and work here, cross the border first without permits to enter and then check up on them months later.

It isn't going to happen though. If we leave at all, we won't be out long enough to get a trade deal sorted with India.

Just going to have to accept it Pasta, Brexit has not survived contact with reality, it's done, it isn't happening, not because anyone is a traitor, it's because Unicorns don't exist, there is no version of Brexit possible that will deliver the promises the Leave campaign made.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Leavers on here getting very desperate now. Three years ago they were convinced we were going to get an amazing deal, we held all the cards etc. They have slowly come to realise that we are in the doo-doo so are now pretending they always wanted no deal. The whole leave debacle has been a face saving exercise. And in doing so they are ruining the country. Financially, socially and reputationally. All because they are too bloody minded to admit they made a huge mistake in being persuaded into an ill thought out, binary leave vote when they had so few facts and even less foresight.

Leavers getting Desperate............
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Typical liberal snow flakes on here who don't like a bit of straight talking from someone living in the north of England , no surprise there then
regards
DR

 

[Klaas]

Typical liberal snow flakes on here who don't like a bit of straight talking from someone living in the north of England , no surprise there then
regards
DR

Getting wound up by the right wing press as per?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Typical liberal snow flakes on here who don't like a bit of straight talking from someone living in the north of England , no surprise there then

South Africa.

 

[Lever]

OK, I've watched it and here is where I don't agree;

01:43 - "There's more and more people want to go" - this is statistically incorrect as per John Curtice's analysis which shows more Leavers are now Remainers than vice versa (https://whatukthinks.org/eu/has-there-been-a-shift-in-support-for-brexit/)

02:23 - "Europe don't want us to have a good deal" - they put together the deal which does what the UK wanted based on the 2016 referendum campaign & the reality of the GFA which suits both parties according to the negotiating teams, but Europe would much rather we left with a deal so this is utter nonsense

02:26 - "They want us to fail" - Europe does not want the UK to fail as for it to do so would let Russia / China into the European area through the back door

02:32 - "Other countries will want to leave" - support for the EU has never been higher in EU member states, averaging 80% in most, while Europhobic political movements have fallen away, and even the likes of Orban and Italy's 5Star Movement are now talking about how they will change things within the EU

03:13 - "He (Hunt) is a remainer, he's always been a remainer" - Jeremy Hunt voted for the deal which would have taken the UK out of the EU on 29th March 2019

03:27 - "He thinks if we leave without a deal it will be terrible, no it won't" - all the leading experts in major industries are telling us that it will, Geoffrey Botcott does not know more about how food supply chains work than the boss of Tesco or how customs checks work better than international trade experts, no matter how many more test match runs than them he's scored

03:32 - "We fought two world wars, and we came out on top" - he didn't fight a second of either of those wars, and it is arguable the First World War was a score draw

03:37 - "Why? Because of the determination and skill of the British people" - Russia would have won the Second World War without our help, and we couldn't have won it without American food, money and armed forces, not to mention the gross insult that comes from his ignoring the Empire / Commonwealth forces who fought valiantly (notably the Canadians in France and the Indians in Burma)

03:48 - "We've got India queuing up to to deals" - India have said their priority is an EU trade deal before making one with the UK

03:51 - "America, our best friends, wanting to do a deal" - Congress has said it will not ratify a trade deal if there is a breach of the GFA and the imposition of a hard border in Ireland

It's also incredibly creepy the way he obsesses over Susannah Reid, but that's by-the-by...

Absolutely excellent riposte.... you have done the work for the rest of us.

 

[Lever]

Pastafarian

At least you have confirmed it is indeed regaining sovereign powers, some of your fellow travellers think no sovereign powers have been ceded to Brussels by insisting there are no sovereign powers to take back control of.

You conveniently miss the rest of the argument....
We have always had sovereign powers; they will be compromised by leaving not enhanced.

 

[nicko31]

"Ok Mr Boycott, I'd like you to summarise everything that's wrong with the incredulously arrogant, exeptionalist, factually incorrect, denialist, looney-tune Brexiteer mentality.
You have 8 minutes and 35 seconds. Off you go..."

What makes he laugh is when the Brexity baby boomers and war babies go on about the war, they knew nothing of it and it was their parents that fought for our freedom.

Line of the interview is definitely, Boris is unambiguous. , LOL

 

[Klaas]

OK, I've watched it and here is where I don't agree;

01:43 - "There's more and more people want to go" - this is statistically incorrect as per John Curtice's analysis which shows more Leavers are now Remainers than vice versa (https://whatukthinks.org/eu/has-there-been-a-shift-in-support-for-brexit/)

02:23 - "Europe don't want us to have a good deal" - they put together the deal which does what the UK wanted based on the 2016 referendum campaign & the reality of the GFA which suits both parties according to the negotiating teams, but Europe would much rather we left with a deal so this is utter nonsense

02:26 - "They want us to fail" - Europe does not want the UK to fail as for it to do so would let Russia / China into the European area through the back door

02:32 - "Other countries will want to leave" - support for the EU has never been higher in EU member states, averaging 80% in most, while Europhobic political movements have fallen away, and even the likes of Orban and Italy's 5Star Movement are now talking about how they will change things within the EU

03:13 - "He (Hunt) is a remainer, he's always been a remainer" - Jeremy Hunt voted for the deal which would have taken the UK out of the EU on 29th March 2019

03:27 - "He thinks if we leave without a deal it will be terrible, no it won't" - all the leading experts in major industries are telling us that it will, Geoffrey Botcott does not know more about how food supply chains work than the boss of Tesco or how customs checks work better than international trade experts, no matter how many more test match runs than them he's scored

03:32 - "We fought two world wars, and we came out on top" - he didn't fight a second of either of those wars, and it is arguable the First World War was a score draw

03:37 - "Why? Because of the determination and skill of the British people" - Russia would have won the Second World War without our help, and we couldn't have won it without American food, money and armed forces, not to mention the gross insult that comes from his ignoring the Empire / Commonwealth forces who fought valiantly (notably the Canadians in France and the Indians in Burma)

03:48 - "We've got India queuing up to to deals" - India have said their priority is an EU trade deal before making one with the UK

03:51 - "America, our best friends, wanting to do a deal" - Congress has said it will not ratify a trade deal if there is a breach of the GFA and the imposition of a hard border in Ireland

It's also incredibly creepy the way he obsesses over Susannah Reid, but that's by-the-by...

*roundofapplause*

 

[ManOfSussex]

There was a line in Rachel Sylvester's column today in The Times that made me chuckle:

Like Peter Pan, who tells the children to clap their hands to keep Tinkerbell alive, Mr Johnson seems to think it is enough to believe in Brexit for it to become reality.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...exit-promises-can-t-please-everyone-97sngng93

A pretty green fairy from a fantasy children's book as a Brexit analogy. Close enough - perhaps Ms Sylvester took inspiration the NSC Brexit thread.

 

[nicko31]

There was a line in Rachel Sylvester's column today in The Times that made me chuckle:

Like Peter Pan, who tells the children to clap their hands to keep Tinkerbell alive, Mr Johnson seems to think it is enough to believe in Brexit for it to become reality.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...exit-promises-can-t-please-everyone-97sngng93

A pretty green fairy from a fantasy children's book as a Brexit analogy. Close enough - perhaps Ms Sylvester took inspiration the NSC Brexit thread.

View attachment 111977

Maybe we should get pretty green fairy and our own PPF together?

Kinda do like the Times even it is Murdoch. They have the views from both sides. Silvester has gone from strength to strength in the last couple of years

 

[A1X]

At least you have confirmed it is indeed regaining sovereign powers, some of your fellow travellers think no sovereign powers have been ceded to Brussels by insisting there are no sovereign powers to take back control of.

The UK Government's own white paper in triggering Article 50 includes the line that the UK Parliament has remained sovereign throughout the UK's membership of both the EEC and the EU. This was voted in favour of by the majority of MPs, including both major parties and all Brexit-supporting MPs. Therefore by claiming that this is wrong you're claiming that the entire triggering of Article 50 was built on lies, which opens it up to challenge under a judicial review.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So, what will be Johnson's choices when he gets in ?

1/ Unplanned leave with 'no deal' on October 31st - So with no border or customs posts in NI, and under WTO MFN (Most Favoured Nation) rules, that means that if we have a completely open border with the EU, we then have to grant completely free movement of trade and people with the Whole world. Interesting approach that I can't see lasting beyond a few weeks at most.

2/ Plan a Leave with 'no deal' - Spend the next 3-5 years and a few £10s of Billions building Customs Posts in NI, Lorry parks at all ports, putting IT infrastructure in place, commissioning systems and processes for the 'new brave world', starting the largest recruitment and training programme in HMRC's history and beginning the WTO negotiations with USA, Russia, China, EU etc

3/ Renegotiate with the EU. The negotiating team has been disbanded and since the EU elections, a number of bodies and posts have to be filled, prior to any EU team being formed to re-negotiate the deal. These aren't due to complete until after the October 31st date. And the EU have said they won't renegotiate. And I don't know what benefits of EU membership people think they will give us this time after we leave, that they withheld from the last deal.

4/ Put TM's deal to Parliament. Well that worked well last time.

Genuine question.

Can any Leave supporter tell me an option that I have overlooked, or anything incorrect in the summary above, and if not, which one do you think we should go for ?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So, what will be Johnson's choices when he gets in ?

1/ Unplanned leave with 'no deal' on October 31st - So with no border or customs posts in NI, and under WTO MFN (Most Favoured Nation) rules, that means that if we have a completely open border with the EU, we then have to grant completely free movement of trade and people with the Whole world. Interesting approach that I can't see lasting beyond a few weeks at most.

2/ Plan a Leave with 'no deal' - Spend the next 3-5 years and a few £10s of Billions building Customs Posts in NI, Lorry parks at all ports, putting IT infrastructure in place, commissioning systems and processes for the 'new brave world', starting the largest recruitment and training programme in HMRC's history and beginning the WTO negotiations with USA, Russia, China, EU etc

3/ Renegotiate with the EU. The negotiating team has been disbanded and since the EU elections, a number of bodies and posts have to be filled, prior to any EU team being formed to re-negotiate the deal. These aren't due to complete until after the October 31st date. And the EU have said they won't renegotiate. And I don't know what benefits of EU membership people think they will give us this time after we leave, that they withheld from the last deal.

4/ Put TM's deal to Parliament. Well that worked well last time.

Genuine question.

Can any Leave supporter tell me an option that I have overlooked, or anything incorrect in the summary above, and if not, which one do you think we should go for ?

On the Today programme yesterday they had an interesting piece about a possible constitutional crisis. When Theresa May goes to the Queen and says she is going and gives the name of the ne leader, could the Queen refuse to accept it because he "would not be able to offer a reliable majority".

I can't remember the exact words, but that is the jist of it. And I can't imagine that it would happen, but they were talking about the possibility of turning to one of the other parties if they were going to offer a steadier ship. This in the midst of both candidates saying they would be prepared to do "No Deal", and increasing numbers of MPs saying they would be prepared to bring their own party's government down in order to prevent no deal.

Fascinating times.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

More misrepresenting bullshit from you. I simply said if there had been a referendum on appeasement in 1937, and appeasement had won then that vote should have been respected. Voters in 1937 would not have had a history of the 20th century book in front of them. All you have done is confirm yet again you don’t believe referendum votes should be respected if you do not agree with them.

I suppose you find it easier to chant 'bullshit' than respond in kind. Nowhere did I say that referendum voters in 1937 would have known what was ahead of them (although they might have had a clue) and nowhere, for that matter, did I even say that they would have been daft to have voted for appeasement. It would have been understandable.

My sole point in raising the hypothesis of a 1937 referendum was, as you know, to test your view that referendum results must always be followed, even if developing circumstances and emerging facts suggest that they will damage the country and its people. You have replied that they must be, and imply that your view wouldn't change even if catastrophe results.

Most people would think that you are terribly wrong but if that's your view, fine. At least you're consistent. There is no need to shout.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Thanks Imp. Of course you are right abut my view on this. It was just pasta playing his little games. If we leave him in his corner he might play nicely.

However as one grown up to another - and assuming that you are indeed in the epicentre of Lincolnshire - I did have occasion to visit Scunthorpe a couple of weeks ago and my word it did look grim. You do have to wonder what the good people of Scunny (and the like) were hoping from Brexit and (more to the point) whether they've any chance of getting it and having got it, will really want it.(If only we all knew what the 'it' is!)

Sorry for the slow reply. I hope I haven't misled.

My genes are entirely Lincolnshire. All my ancestors, back to the Vikings I guess, farmed and milled in the county. My surname and middle name are shared by Lincolnshire villages.

But my parents lived in Sussex for 25 years because of my father's job. They went 'home' on the day he retired. I was born in Brighton and live in the northern shadow of the Downs and my growing bit of the family is the only one in Sussex. I have followed the Albion all my life.

I was in Scunthorpe not long ago. My nephew, a nurse, moved to the local hospital, where his mother often works, because he could buy a nice semi-d for £120,000. The town is grim; a bit like Burnley. I don't know how he voted but the rural Lincolnshire Brexiteers I know don't seem to have specific reasons for voting as they did. There is a bit of stuff about immigrants and being independent again but it all seems pretty inchoate - you'd naturally kick the bloke from the council in the nuts if you could and smug southern Etonians and self-satisfied Europeans fall in the same category. They feel bypassed by those running the country (both parties) and the chance to give them the finger was too good to miss.

Undoubtedly, though, there are thoughtful yellow bellies around who object to the EU on the grounds of democratic accountability, etc, etc, but there don't seem to be huge numbers of them.

 

[Lever]

I suppose you find it easier to chant 'bullshit' than respond in kind. Nowhere did I say that referendum voters in 1937 would have known what was ahead of them (although they might have had a clue) and nowhere, for that matter, did I even say that they would have been daft to have voted for appeasement. It would have been understandable.

My sole point in raising the hypothesis of a 1937 referendum was, as you know, to test your view that referendum results must always be followed, even if developing circumstances and emerging facts suggest that they will damage the country and its people. You have replied that they must be, and imply that your view wouldn't change even if catastrophe results.

Most people would think that you are terribly wrong but if that's your view, fine. At least you're consistent. There is no need to shout.

The Leave lobby is generally beyond debate, particularly about detail; the attitude is entirely visceral - and this is one major reason why it is beyond any new leader (particularly one with no moral compass) to 'bring the country together again'.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The Leave lobby is generally beyond debate, particularly about detail; the attitude is entirely visceral - and this is one major reason why it is beyond any new leader (particularly one with no moral compass) to 'bring the country together again'.

Which is why Johnson is the perfect choice for them. He's not going to confuse them with detail,

or facts,

or reality

 

[happypig]

So, what will be Johnson's choices when he gets in ?

1/ Unplanned leave with 'no deal' on October 31st - So with no border or customs posts in NI, and under WTO MFN (Most Favoured Nation) rules, that means that if we have a completely open border with the EU, we then have to grant completely free movement of trade and people with the Whole world. Interesting approach that I can't see lasting beyond a few weeks at most.

2/ Plan a Leave with 'no deal' - Spend the next 3-5 years and a few £10s of Billions building Customs Posts in NI, Lorry parks at all ports, putting IT infrastructure in place, commissioning systems and processes for the 'new brave world', starting the largest recruitment and training programme in HMRC's history and beginning the WTO negotiations with USA, Russia, China, EU etc

3/ Renegotiate with the EU. The negotiating team has been disbanded and since the EU elections, a number of bodies and posts have to be filled, prior to any EU team being formed to re-negotiate the deal. These aren't due to complete until after the October 31st date. And the EU have said they won't renegotiate. And I don't know what benefits of EU membership people think they will give us this time after we leave, that they withheld from the last deal.

4/ Put TM's deal to Parliament. Well that worked well last time.

Genuine question.

Can any Leave supporter tell me an option that I have overlooked, or anything incorrect in the summary above, and if not, which one do you think we should go for ?

You forgot, under option 1, to put Power Cuts as the deals to import electricity via various interconnects with Eire/France/Belgium could mean we are short of electricity.