[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

So just one simple question, that not one leaver has ever been able to give me the answer to. Just how will us ordinary members of the public be any better off than when we leave? It's a simple question that anyone who voted leave can surely answer yet not one has been able to come up with a half sensible explanation. There is no way I would vote leave without a pretty good assurance that my life would somehow improve. Leaving seems to me to be like turkeys voting for Christmas but I'm more than happy to hear a reasoned argument based on facts to convince me otherwise.

So, it's all about your self-interest then? You need some sort of guarantee of financial gain if we leave? What's in it for me? Well, that sounds like Thatcherism is alive and (unfortunately) still living.
I'll just be happy to be disassociated from, and outside of, the EU. If I'm a few quid a week worse off (and I'm an OAP btw, not a millionaire/big money earner).

 

[Bold Seagull]

.....and some deluded people think that Parliament is an upholder of Parliamentary democracy, given that they are doing their best to bring it into such a level of disrepute that the concept may not survive much longer with any credibility. Though god knows what we'll replace it with (and that'll be a far harder than Brexit for all those 'let's scupper Brexit' MPs to find an answer for!)

There are Brexit voters who are fixated on only one thing, leaving the EU. The government, and Parliament for that matter are responsible for the governance of the country. Leaving the EU has to be balanced with governing the country.

We all know some lunatics don't give a monkeys about anything else other than leaving, but surely the reason to leave is to make the UK a better place, not worse? Then why is the expectancy to leave whatever the cost to the country as a whole?

The deal with the EU is our first post EU membership trade deal. If we are talking that Brexit gives us the opportunity to negotiate our own trade deals, then surely negotiating the one with our biggest market is the one to get right? If we say it doesn't matter we just have to leave, what exactly does that mean for all our other trade deals? No wonder there are so many outside agents actively engaged in encouraging a No Deal. It is massively in the interest of our competitors/enemies for that to happen.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

The longer it's drawn out, the more money they make

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[GT49er]

There are Brexit voters who are fixated on only one thing, leaving the EU. The government, and Parliament for that matter are responsible for the governance of the country. Leaving the EU has to be balanced with governing the country.

We all know some lunatics don't give a monkeys about anything else other than leaving, but surely the reason to leave is to make the UK a better place, not worse? Then why is the expectancy to leave whatever the cost to the country as a whole?

The deal with the EU is our first post EU membership trade deal. If we are talking that Brexit gives us the opportunity to negotiate our own trade deals, then surely negotiating the one with our biggest market is the one to get right? If we say it doesn't matter we just have to leave, what exactly does that mean for all our other trade deals? No wonder there are so many outside agents actively engaged in encouraging a No Deal. It is massively in the interest of our competitors/enemies for that to happen.

Business is business. Importing and exporting is business. Business survived two world wars - and many actually thrived. I know some of them are moaning that they might have some temporary difficulties - they'll just have t try a bit harder to find ways to make it work, like they always have - and always succeeded.

 

[nicko31]

.....and some deluded people think that Parliament is an upholder of Parliamentary democracy, given that they are doing their best to bring it into such a level of disrepute that the concept may not survive much longer with any credibility. Though god knows what we'll replace it with (and that'll be a far harder than Brexit for all those 'let's scupper Brexit' MPs to find an answer for!)

Think you need to take stock and live in China for a couple of years. You do seem to struggle with our parliamentary democracy.

 

[whitelion]

I'm curious to know why, given that our government couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Quite simple really. I've realised that we'd be better off "doing our own thing" as regards trade etc and without all the bureacracy (another layer) that goes with it. I honestly do believe that other countries will start a leaving process as well after seeing how our Brexit is handled although it does appear to be a very painful process.

 

[drew]

So, it's all about your self-interest then? You need some sort of guarantee of financial gain if we leave? What's in it for me? Well, that sounds like Thatcherism is alive and (unfortunately) still living.
I'll just be happy to be disassociated from, and outside of, the EU. If I'm a few quid a week worse off (and I'm an OAP btw, not a millionaire/big money earner).

Looks like he still hasn't got an answer then. A few quid worse off is ok with you. As an OAP you don't have to worry about work, your pension is pretty much guaranteed. What about those that have mortgages that need paying, families to pay feed.

Exactly how will our country be better off being outside of the EU other than for your personal satisfaction.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

Can someone explain what happens if there is a NO vote to No Deal tomorrow, and then a NO vote to an extension of Article 50 on Thurs?!

We leave

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The Tory manifesto said they would leave the customs union and single market. The Labour manifesto said they would stay in the customs union and align with the single market. They have largely voted on those lines.

All this talk of betrayal is just hubris. The MPs elected on delivering a Brexit with a customs union couldn't vote for May's deal. The same could be applied to being elected not being part of a customs union when the back stop keeps that on the table. If anything, Parliament has remained too faithful to their manifesto promises, being too intransigent on both sides to compromise.

On the surface I agree with you. But there are undoubtedly those who will use these issues as a delaying tactic, one that they hope will lead eventually to no Brexit.

 

[The Lemming Stomper]

Business survived two world wars

 

[whitelion]

Said without judgement but how the effing hell can the last two years have convinced you that the better option is to leave? What was it that swayed you?

See my last reply to [MENTION=1320]Notters[/MENTION]. Bureacracy etc etc

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I don't understand how people can say "We're fed up, just make a decision and get on with it."

One option is the status quo, and is imperfect but in no way risky, the other way is inherently risky, is almost certain to be economically crippling in the short term, could result in the break-up of the UK and is certain to drag on and dominate the news for another 5-10 years as trade deal after trade deal is dismantled and f*cked about with.

The apathy and level of ignorance is staggering, as is the people's seeming faith in our elected leaders to negotiate a post-Brexit world. These people are incompetent - Chris Grayling? Karen Bradley??

I think Umunna was just getting at the bumbling way our Parliament has gone about administering Brexit. Not so much an idea that we should just go for something without planning.

 

[portlock seagull]

I voted remain in 2016 and would do so again, however, I don't believe there should be one. Brexit has all but broken politics in this country and I fear another referendum would see a lurch to extremism in both directions

Agree. I voted leave but I now believe we should never have been allowed a vote to because the reality is we can’t. The EU and the remain camp are too strong, exacerbated by the complete failure of politics in this country. Perhaps if we’d done so in the 90s, but by 2016 I’m now of the opinion it was always impossible to, as I’m sure we will see in the next 12 months. Cameron and Blair have a lot to answer for.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Business is business. Importing and exporting is business. Business survived two world wars - and many actually thrived. I know some of them are moaning that they might have some temporary difficulties - they'll just have t try a bit harder to find ways to make it work, like they always have - and always succeeded.

Perhaps I am just more proud of being British because for me our Parliamentary democracy is something I couldn't deride, ridicule or accuse of betrayal. Our Parliament has stood the test of time, through wars, through turmoil, through tribulation. It has stood through revolutions and great change in society and the world.

And yet, referendums, of which we have held 3 nationally, in our entire history, somehow places Parliament, our sovereignty as subservient. It shouldn't.

The EU, in or out, is not more important than our sovereign Parliamentary democracy. People in their passion for leaving the EU, are losing sight of what they were fighting for in the first place, more power for our Parliament. Why on earth would we denigrate that if that is the case?

This was never going to be easy, the Government are making a mess of it, Parliament is struggling to come to come to terms with it, but this is democracy. It is messy, cumbersome, frustrating.

We are finally understanding why it was said that referendums are the preserve of dictators and demagogues.

 

[Bold Seagull]

On the surface I agree with you. But there are undoubtedly those who will use these issues as a delaying tactic, one that they hope will lead eventually to no Brexit.

Of course there is, it was always going to be that. There was never a scenario where a leave vote was going to be easily delivered.

We have to trust Parliament though. MPs come and go over generations, but Parliament stands. I really don't like to see our democracy denigrated in the way it is experiencing. It is bringing out the patriotism in me, but there is also great hypocrisy in voting to leave the EU for our supreme sovereignty but rubbishing that same sovereignty because it is not enacting exactly what you want.

 

[portlock seagull]

Business is business. Importing and exporting is business. Business survived two world wars - and many actually thrived. I know some of them are moaning that they might have some temporary difficulties - they'll just have t try a bit harder to find ways to make it work, like they always have - and always succeeded.

I have always said similarly. Nothing is basically forever. We adapt. Move forward and thrive not just survive. Lots of people need to read a lot more history.

 

[LadySeagull]

We will leave, in the end.

 

[Kent Seagull]

So, it's all about your self-interest then? You need some sort of guarantee of financial gain if we leave? What's in it for me? Well, that sounds like Thatcherism is alive and (unfortunately) still living.
I'll just be happy to be disassociated from, and outside of, the EU. If I'm a few quid a week worse off (and I'm an OAP btw, not a millionaire/big money earner).

The point I was trying to make wasn't about self interest as such, I just want to know how leaving the EU will help us less well off people to have a better life. Why on earth would anyone vote for something that does nothing at all for the ordinary working families? Why will nobody just identify what will actually improve for us ordinary folks?

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[drew]

The longer it's drawn out, the more money they make

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£7m for one particular Brexiteer/ERG stalwart at the last count!!

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, it's the one about whether or not Parliament should give a flying f*ck about what the electorate has voted for, and whether they can get away with ignoring it.

So what did the electorate vote for, In the customs union, Norway, TM's deal or No deal and a hard border in NI? Maybe we should ask them