[Politics] Brexit

[WATFORD zero]

I do know what i want thanks.

Since you are the one with the crystal ball why not give us a prediction instead of just listing as many alternatives as you can think of.
Will we Leave the EU with a deal or Leave the EU without a deal?

I guess we will have to take your word for it since you won't tell anyone what you want

Indeed, you are the only person on this whole thread who has never said you wanted, as far as I remember. You've told us a lot about what you do, but nothing about what type of Brexit you want.

 

[fanseagull]

And another sure fire way not to unite the country is to call 52% of them 'thick', 'Little Englanders', 'xenophobic', 'racist' and even 'div'. You might want to look at your own remain house first.

Regardless, I'm interested in what you think would re-unite the country ? Given remain and leave are two such binary options it seems difficult anyone could find some common ground for a majority ..... as is currently being proven in the House of Commons.

Don't need to look at my 'remain house' Westdene Seagull, I am in complete agreement with you on that.

I don't know what would reunite the country and nor do you or Pastafarian... Maybe we need more time to consider it; revoking A50 might be a start.
In my opinion, you have shown general restraint and clearly expressed your firmly held views, almost exclusively without rancour; that too, is a start.

 

[fanseagull]

I can tell you what you said because that is what you said, you were very clear that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is the way forward..........that is one revolting belief system.

You have returned too soon Pastafarian; I still recommend a rest.
For the record, it isn't 'honouring a democratic vote' (emotive nonsense) that I am sceptical about - but whether the impact of doing so will bring the peace and harmony (as well as prosperity) that we all (well, the vast majority of us) are now seeking.....

I also hope the New Year brings better health for you

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Don't need to look at my 'remain house' Westdene Seagull, I am in complete agreement with you on that.

I don't know what would reunite the country and nor do you or Pastafarian... Maybe we need more time to consider it; revoking A50 might be a start.
In my opinion, you have shown general restraint and clearly expressed your firmly held views, almost exclusively without rancour; that too, is a start.

And therein lies the problem - as a leaver if A50 was revoked it would set the alarm bells ringing and make me very suspicious that we would never leave the EU. The trust between BOTH sets of voters and the 'auhorities' needs rebuilding so both sides could trust the decision makers.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The problem for pro EU enthusiasts like you that consider you have the high ground on economic credibility is the the structural weakness of the euro. The eurozone countries are currently teetering on the brink of another crisis. This is a crisis born out of the creation of the euro where political expediency trumped economic logic. It was and remains an ideological nirvana for many on the pro EU side despite its myriad of problems. I’m sure you don’t want to go through those, however as at the end of 2018 the ECB called an end to its QE programme which has pumped 2trn of euros into the European economy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46552147

As with all QE the rich and big business got richer while austerity bore down on the poor. Italy is the poster boy for this profound economic mismanagement and the chickens are gathering again.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/i...ant-rescue-it-from-its-next-crisis-2018-06-11

https://www.politico.eu/article/here-comes-the-next-euro-crisis/

If the EU zealots could only take in and recognise the macro problems that they have created then the divisiveness of its consequences like Brexit could be understood in more sympathetic terms. I read recently even one of the architects of the euro now recognises it is a mistake, not least because the political will to create a single euro governance framework is not there.

Little wonder scepticism reigns.

Dare I suggest that this is the Brexiteers' version of Project Fear? The Euro survived the global economic crisis (despite predictions) and is currently rather robust in its exchange rate with sterling. And the logic of your analysis of the 'lack of a single euro governance framework' may well be spot-on but leads further down the road to economic integration which I quite like but presumably you don't? However, notwithstanding this, are you in any way convinced by the 'Economists for Free Trade' inspired vision of the Brexiteers which is a recipe for de-regulation and a race to the bottom? Not sure how well the poor will do out of this process? Are you?

 

[Baldseagull]

Doesnt come across as someone who is struggling with a dilemma at all, he comes across as quite clear and perfectly reasoned as to what is the correct thing to do, in fact he has been quite consistent on this matter and even says he feels “very strongly” about it.. He obviously recognises the importance of respecting a democratic vote even when he personally doesn’t agree with it. Not surprised people like you are struggling to understand this most basic of concepts.

A second referendum is very bad for the Tory party, I think this is why more Tory Remainers are keen to avoid a second referendum.

 

[fanseagull]

And therein lies the problem - as a leaver if A50 was revoked it would set the alarm bells ringing and make me very suspicious that we would never leave the EU. The trust between BOTH sets of voters and the 'auhorities' needs rebuilding so both sides could trust the decision makers.

So logically, if we are to reunite the country at all, we need time; we don't have it and if we seek it you and others with similar convictions will feel uncomfortable.
If we carry on within the existing time scale then we won't have space to come together at all.

Whichever way it goes, It will not be good enough to tell a large portion of the population who are deeply concerned to 'get over it'. This is a perfect storm. We still need to identify any 'healing' possibilities or we will be divided for the rest of our lifetimes and probably more........

 

[Baldseagull]

I can tell you what you said because that is what you said, you were very clear that you doubt honouring a democratic vote is the way forward..........that is one revolting belief system.








I do know what i want thanks.

Since you are the one with the crystal ball why not give us a prediction instead of just listing as many alternatives as you can think of.
Will we Leave the EU with a deal or Leave the EU without a deal?

Your Pal JCFG used to post regularly that we must "honour the result of free and fair elections". Then a bit of skulduggery was uncovered with Facebook ads, and spending. He doesn't mention free and fair anymore, but still says we must honour the result.
There are questions over Arron Banks funding and whether it was legal, and strong suspicion that it was in fact from the Kremlin.
There were problems with the postal vote, with many people living in Europe not getting their cards, or not getting them until it was too late to return them, what seems to be strange rates of return and duplication, and the Company that administered the sending, receiving and verification of postal votes has a prominent Leave Tory on the board, and a major Tory Backer is the biggest shareholder.

I appreciate that the known breaches of electoral law are not enough for you to question the validity of the vote, but if it is shown that Arron Banks was funneling Kremlin cash into the leave campaign, would that be enough corruption of the referendum for you?

 

[Seagull1989]

Good idea.

The decision has been made to Leave the European Union.
In a follow up Referendum let the public decide how we should Leave (parliament is proving useless.)
Put your cross in one of the two boxes.

A/ Leave with the negotiated withdrawal agreement
Or
B/ Leave with No Deal[/QUOTE]

A/ Damage limitations
B/ Cliffedge

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I guess that we all await May's reaction to the almost certain defeat in the Commons' vote on Tuesday. She'll have 3 days to come back with a rabbit pulled out of a hat. By the end of next week we'll see if May's deal - and a patched up Mark 2 - is dead in the water. And then?

 

[The Clamp]

Isn’t is just absurd that we are now weeks away from supposedly leaving the EU and literally nobody has the first clue how to leave the EU.

 

[cunning fergus]

Dare I suggest that this is the Brexiteers' version of Project Fear? The Euro survived the global economic crisis (despite predictions) and is currently rather robust in its exchange rate with sterling. And the logic of your analysis of the 'lack of a single euro governance framework' may well be spot-on but leads further down the road to economic integration which I quite like but presumably you don't? However, notwithstanding this, are you in any way convinced by the 'Economists for Free Trade' inspired vision of the Brexiteers which is a recipe for de-regulation and a race to the bottom? Not sure how well the poor will do out of this process? Are you?

I think you have a fair point about project fear, save for the fact that we have already had a good look at the systemic weaknesses that exist with the euro. To illustrate, QE by the ECB is technically not allowed however at the time needs must and against the advice of the Bundesbank the QE printing presses were turned on whilst austerity was imposed on countries like Spain and Italy. Further, and despite your view on the the euro/sterling exchange rate the euro interest rate is 0% after €2trn was flushed through, even moribund sterling got up to 0.75% after our own QE, so on that measure the euro fundamentals are not healthy.

I think your key point though is you want more integration, and I respect your candour, because back in 2016 this is what the referendum was essentially about. At that time (post euro crisis) the eurozone countries had to integrate more, that was and undeniable fact, and consequently the 2 speed EU that politicians had always said wouldn’t happen, was going to happen.

In my view you can’t be a little bit pregnant and you are either in the EU lock, stock and barrel (with the euro) or you may as well be out (out the euro and EU completely). That is because the EU is going do all it can (rightly so) to protect the euro, and therefore countries not in the euro will be at a disadvantage not least because majority voting is round the corner.

There is the problem now with a second referendum and the future of the euro/EU, the integrationalists are in the minority democratically but still holding the levers of power. The political position in Europe in my view is worse than here, and Italy is a problem not yet crystallised, Greece is going to need another bail out, even Germany and France are facing political challenges unforeseen 2 years ago.

So, integration won’t happen and the euro weaknesses will not have been fixed, you may feel that we should throw the dice and go “all-in” with the EU, but there is a cliff edge of monumental proportions compared to whether or not we remove the 80% tariff on a tin of peaches from outside the EU.

 

[vegster]

So logically, if we are to reunite the country at all, we need time; we don't have it and if we seek it you and others with similar convictions will feel uncomfortable.
If we carry on within the existing time scale then we won't have space to come together at all.

Whichever way it goes, It will not be good enough to tell a large portion of the population who are deeply concerned to 'get over it'. This is a perfect storm. We still need to identify any 'healing' possibilities or we will be divided for the rest of our lifetimes and probably more........

This is what I was saying two years ago. We have a country barely out of recession that has been split into two then, over the last two years, split further in to smaller factions.

Whatever happens we will have a huge swathe of disaffected people who's lives are certainly going to get worse in the first few years of Brexit and, may not get better, if at all, for decades.

The divisions and infighting can be seen in today's Sunday papers headlines with the choice of rhetoric being used. Lord knows what will happen by Friday.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Just been watching Corbyn on the Marr show. Totally unconvincing on the possible re-negotiation with the EU post General Election assuming he wins it. He's almost taking the Liam Fox line - easiest deal in history. I really don't think he believes that he can breeze into Brussel assured of a better deal than May got e.g. jointly negotiating any new trade deals the EU enters into with 3rd parties. This would give the UK more leverage than any remaining member of the EU. No other member would put up with that. Delusional I'm afraid.

 

[fanseagull]

This is what I was saying two years ago. We have a country barely out of recession that has been split into two then, over the last two years, split further in to smaller factions.

Whatever happens we will have a huge swathe of disaffected people who's lives are certainly going to get worse in the first few years of Brexit and, may not get better, if at all, for decades.

The divisions and infighting can be seen in today's Sunday papers headlines with the choice of rhetoric being used. Lord knows what will happen by Friday.

I suspect the divisions will continue to deepen. We first endured a torrent of Brexit triumphalism, followed by pointless exchanges of increasingly unpleasant name-calling, conflicting data and personal anecdotes. As far as I can see, no one on here has budged an inch over the past couple of years. Some contributions have come close to hysterical. Minds are locked and bolted.
What can you do when someone writes 'I have nothing but contempt for your belief and it should always be mocked'? That's the end of debate and continuation of poison.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Your Pal JCFG used to post regularly that we must "honour the result of free and fair elections". Then a bit of skulduggery was uncovered with Facebook ads, and spending. He doesn't mention free and fair anymore, but still says we must honour the result.
There are questions over Arron Banks funding and whether it was legal, and strong suspicion that it was in fact from the Kremlin.
There were problems with the postal vote, with many people living in Europe not getting their cards, or not getting them until it was too late to return them, what seems to be strange rates of return and duplication, and the Company that administered the sending, receiving and verification of postal votes has a prominent Leave Tory on the board, and a major Tory Backer is the biggest shareholder.

I appreciate that the known breaches of electoral law are not enough for you to question the validity of the vote, but if it is shown that Arron Banks was funneling Kremlin cash into the leave campaign, would that be enough corruption of the referendum for you?

There are better reasons to question 'Free and fair'....

... despite this outrageous bias towards the Remain campaign I still say we must honour the result.

 

[cunning fergus]

This is what I was saying two years ago. We have a country barely out of recession that has been split into two then, over the last two years, split further in to smaller factions.

Whatever happens we will have a huge swathe of disaffected people who's lives are certainly going to get worse in the first few years of Brexit and, may not get better, if at all, for decades.

The divisions and infighting can be seen in today's Sunday papers headlines with the choice of rhetoric being used. Lord knows what will happen by Friday.

For many in this country the last 15 years have seen stagnating wages and worsening work prospects, things could not get worse. Yvette Cooper recognised this a few years ago when she said.....

"We want to see action to stop immigration being abused and exploited as a source of cheap labour to undercut wages and jobs.

"That means stronger enforcement of the minimum wage and action against gangmasters or employers who put migrant workers in overcrowded accommodation then exploit them on poverty pay – undercutting local workers and responsible businesses too," she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/01/uk-workers-unprotected-migration-labour-cooper

Her constituency voted leave, and yet she is doing all she can to frustrate the leave process. On a prima facie basis she is doing all she can to exacerbate voter disaffection. A sad state of affairs in what some describe as the mother of all parliaments.

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

His my hero arise sir Niel

 

[Mr Bridger]

His my hero arise sir Niel

View attachment 103757

is that today’s anagram? No nasal hair my arse.

 

[fanseagull]

His my hero arise sir Niel

View attachment 103757

Your comment is poorly spelt gibberish......