[Politics] Brexit

[Berty23]

I did read what you posted previously, you introduced a comparison with Hitler..........hardly the hallmark of a neutral debate, I am sure you would agree.

At the moment Trump is implementing what he said he would do in his campaign, we will see what happens.........I will remain calm and keep the Hitler comparisons under wraps till he signs off a Bill on building industrial size ovens.

It's odd. I don't remember him saying he will ban people from countries where he doesn't have businesses and never produced terrorists in US and allow those from countries that have produced terrorists and places he has businesses. Probably just a coincidence that he has loads of businesses in Saudi Arabia and he forgot to put them on the list despite the involvement in 9/11.

Is that what he meant by protecting America?

 

[GT49er]

Sorry, I always like to bring in a Hitler allegory into a conversation, if at all possible. But an allegory isn't really a comparison. Hitler didn't just build ovens, he also thought the unthinkable, then made it happen. That is iconoclasic, and by definition, not doctrinaire, which makes it impossible to predetermine whether or not it is good. One thing it isn't is principled. There again, principled isn't always good/effective (vide Corbyn). Intdresting times . . . .

Big fan of gibberish, then?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Big fan of gibberish, then?

Er . . . no

 

[GT49er]

Er . . . no

No?


Oh......well appearances can be deceptive, I guess

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No?


Oh......well appearances can be deceptive, I guess

When did I appear? Careless reading can deceive . . . .

 

[GT49er]

When did I appear? Careless reading can deceive . . . .

#26335. I rest my case!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Except its all meaningless.
On the matter of immigration there is no evidence to suggest The EU are ready to change.
In fact we have evidence as we speak to the contrary. Just look at Switzerland right now. The EU are not willing to budge.
The Swiss gov has been forced to back track on a legally binding referendum on immigrant quotas after the EU played hard ball.
If the EU was prepared to evolve on immigration they could be showing that right now towards Switzerland......but they are not.
As you can imagine in a country that relies on direct democracy this is curdling even the cow bells amongst many citizens.

There is no use pretending that somehow if we had stayed in this issue would be resolved. It simply would not. Its nice to see remainers recognising immigration across Europe is out of control and the legislation needs to evolve but its a bit late for that, you probably should have listened much earlier, and the bosses at the top of the EU dont care what you think anyway.
We are best off out of it.

I don't really see how it can be meaningless to describe some of the pressures the EU is facing and I certainly didn't say that, right now, the EU is ready to change its position on immigration. In fact my original post specifically said that it wasn't. The point I was making was that the pressures are increasing, and from an increasing number of directions. These pressures will I feel (and 'feel' is the operative word - I don't 'know' any more than you do) make change almost inevitable.

A word about remainers recognising that 'immigration... is out of control'. Your implication is that remainers are finally understanding something that you knew all along. Not true. Among the many things I think aren't being well handled - the NHS, town planning, transport, local government, housing... we all have our hobby horses - I would include immigration, particularly from outside the EU but also from within it.

I don't know if you are familiar with any towns with high levels of EU immigration. I am. It can be a problem. Not a huge problem and despite the best efforts of some people to ramp up discord a problem that could be minimised by more interventionist social and housing policies at local level. On balance though I would say, and it's only a view, immigration should be better controlled. It's much less of a disaster than (say) housing and social provision in towns like Grimsby - about which I see no one giving a toot - but it is something it would be helpful to deal with in the future. And it will be dealt with, with or without Britain.

I don't think that's meaningless.

BSM

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I really think a lot are waiting and watching, and the EU could (i hope) just fall apart.

Just out of interest, why to you hope the EU falls apart? Mainland Europe has always been, and surely always will be, one of our closest trading partners. Wouldn't a colossal upheaval of the kind you wish for have terrible implications for our economy?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just out of interest, why to you hope the EU falls apart? Mainland Europe has always been, and surely always will be, one of our closest trading partners. Wouldn't a colossal upheaval of the kind you wish for have terrible implications for our economy?

Ha ha. Asking [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] a question, and a difficult on at that. Very mischievous of you.

 

[Soulman]

Just out of interest, why to you hope the EU falls apart? Mainland Europe has always been, and surely always will be, one of our closest trading partners. Wouldn't a colossal upheaval of the kind you wish for have terrible implications for our economy?

So what is stopping us still trading with Europe, we used to trade pre the EU. We can trade without set tariffs, without giving millions a day, without dipping into the pot to bail out other economies, and we can NOW make our own laws and decisions.
I hope my answer, (although you may not agree, and ignoring the chap HT who does not live here) is sufficient for you.....but then you know my stance anyway.

 

[BigGully]

Just out of interest, why to you hope the EU falls apart? Mainland Europe has always been, and surely always will be, one of our closest trading partners. Wouldn't a colossal upheaval of the kind you wish for have terrible implications for our economy?

Its something that you do not lend to the EU's position towards the UK post Brexit, you seem to view an inevitable punitive deal which might harm the prosperity of the UK and the EU as wholly reasonable.

It seems to unperpin your view on the very reason why we must maintain membership of the EU, why not at least acknowledge that actually it would be in the best interest of the EU and the UK to find a free trade deal, something that the UK is keen to do, if it doesnt happen then point your finger at them not us.

 

[WonderingSoton]

For all the song and dance Remainers made about the mooted leaving of the European Medicines Agency, it's been very quiet today regarding the announced Novo Nordisk Oxford project. 10 years, so medium term it's fair to say.

 

[portslade seagull]

For all the song and dance Remainers made about the mooted leaving of the European Medicines Agency, it's been very quiet today regarding the announced Novo Nordisk Oxford project. 10 years, so medium term it's fair to say.

Haven't you realised anything deemed as good news is frowned upon and chucked into the waste paper bin !!

 

[beorhthelm]

For all the song and dance Remainers made about the mooted leaving of the European Medicines Agency, it's been very quiet today regarding the announced Novo Nordisk Oxford project. 10 years, so medium term it's fair to say.

its also being discussed (though i expect unlikely to be politically accepted) for the EMA to stay in London after we've left EU anyway. the people there dont want to move and see a benefit to "neutral" to other EU nations.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Its something that you do not lend to the EU's position towards the UK post Brexit, you seem to view an inevitable punitive deal which might harm the prosperity of the UK and the EU as wholly reasonable.

It seems to unperpin your view on the very reason why we must maintain membership of the EU, why not at least acknowledge that actually it would be in the best interest of the EU and the UK to find a free trade deal, something that the UK is keen to do, if it doesnt happen then point your finger at them not us.

You've got me here I'm afraid. I asked someone why they wanted the EU to fall apart in view of the fact that such a huge disintegration would seriously damage the economy of the EU, its close trading partner. The question was not pro or anti EU, it was not about reasonable positions or punitive deals. It was simply about the night-follows-day effects of a huge political and economic event on the well-being of the UK.

I therefore don't understand the point you make above. Perhaps you read something into my post that wasn't there.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Haven't you realised anything deemed as good news is frowned upon and chucked into the waste paper bin !!

I don't know anything about the Nove Nordisk Oxford project. Sounds like good news though.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

its also being discussed (though i expect unlikely to be politically accepted) for the EMA to stay in London after we've left EU anyway. the people there dont want to move and see a benefit to "neutral" to other EU nations.

Highly unlikely I'd say.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Funny how we remember things. I thought this started with some who had voted remain being incredulous that their view didn't prevail unleashing numerous diatribes against everyone who voted differently to them. The first stock market reference was the big fall immediately after the vote supposedly being a sign that the predicted economic armageddon was on the way. When the FTSE 100 finally made a recovery some Brexiteers pointed out perhaps the predictions were wrong and were told this measure no longer counts as the FTSE 250 is more relevant. When the FTSE 250 recovered they moved the goal posts once more ... repeat ad nauseam. Then we were told by people who 'respect the result' that we didn't really know what we were voting for so diluting or reversing the decision is completely reasonable and ok.

Personally, I was willing to give a bit of leeway to those who voted differently venting their angst as this was a big shock and a momentous decision. But week after week, month after month of patronising incessant negativity by a few people has resulted in a quite understandable backlash. To be fair most people who voted remain on NSC have either steered well clear of this nonsense or stated they actually do accept the result and wish to give it a chance. Also, it must be obvious that some people only populate this thread to provoke a response from or have a dig at the other side.

It would be nice if we could all give 'New Britain'/Brexit a chance before righting it off but I can't see that happening, can you?

I just mentioned the stock market as an illustration of the point that, inevitably, people on either side of this debate will want to draw attention to data which appears to validate their view. I'm sure your memory of the Footsie's ups and down is entirely accurate.

You say that remain voters were 'incredulous' that Leave won. Certainly the polls, including the private City polls, were predicting that Remain would win so inevitably there was surprise in both quarters. Of course there was. For what it's worth, my closest friend, a Leave voter, was convinced Remain would win whilst I, someone with a generally poor record of predicting things, was
on here arguing that Leave would win.

Patronising? I can give you the names of half a dozen Brexit heroes on here who have often proved that it works both ways.

 

[The Rivet]

Highly unlikely I'd say.

You said that about a successful Brexit vote.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You said that about a successful Brexit vote.

If you want to disagree let's have a wager. I reckon they'll have announced the move within 1 year of the Brexit talks concluding.