[Politics] Brexit

[Pavilionaire]

What are you going on about?

Of the 27 EU countries 11 willingly fought WITH and FOR the Germans.

Of the 6 neutrals, the Govts of Sweden, and Spain actively supported to German cause, with thousands of their volunteering citizens to fight for Facism. The Irish Govt sent condolences when Hitler died and then welcomed in catholic war criminals from Croatia and Breton.

Of the Allied Govts it was not binary that their citizens were not sympathetic to the German cause, a number of the SS regiments were chocked full of French, Belgians, Dutch etc. Not forgetting Vichy France the Malisse et al.

Don't re write history, aside from arguably the Czechs only one ex EU country technically stood alone (albeit with its loyal commonwealth) against the tyranny of fascist Germany. Which is why many people would rather preference of immigration was given to (say) Gurkhas as oppose to those from historically facist countries we fought hard against to defeat.

Off the top of my head Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Czech, Denmark, Finland, France, Hungary, Greece, Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands lost control to either Germany or Russia. Those that came close to losing control include the UK and Malta, while Italy, Austria and Spain all fell under fascist control prior to the war.

Once the people of Europe became aware of the full horror of Hitler's Final Solution and the extermination of 6 million Jews everything came into focus. Nobody is re-writing history here - the driving force behind the creation of the EU was peace through trade and the intention was always to take that EU state throughout the landmass to the Russian and Turkish borders. You've only got to look at the force for good the EU has been in the Balkans since the conflict in the 90s to see that it has been successful in knitting together the disparate states.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Don't re write history, aside from arguably the Czechs only one ex EU country technically stood alone (albeit with its loyal commonwealth) against the tyranny of fascist Germany. Which is why many people would rather preference of immigration was given to (say) Gurkhas as oppose to those from historically facist countries we fought hard against to defeat.

If you think that Belgium is an historically fascist country we fought hard against to defeat then I can understand your position on the EU. It's similar to Rivet's really. He thinks the EU is the Fourth Reich.

 

[Baldseagull]

Absolutely correct, anyone thinking the EU is not a Tory free market wet dream are in complete denial.

Whilst I have no doubt Govts are always in thrall to corporatists the EU is corporatist max.

Can you imagine what Corbyn and Farron would say if the Tory Govt set up something like the ERT for the UK?

http://www.ert.eu/

This kind of access to law makers is outrageous, the fact that unions support the EU when it is in the pocket of global capitalism is nothing short of a disgrace.

The ERT and the ETUC are independent of the EU, not set up by them, and both also communicate with National Governments including the UK Government. It would be daft to create and legislate for a single market for Europe without listening to European business and European trade unions.

 

[DataPoint]

So Richmond was all about an updated Brexit referendum!

Lib Dem's Olney (Remain) polled 54.9% of the vote (giving her all the non Goldsmth's votes - else 49.7% on her own).

Brexit vote: Remain 69.3%.

14.4% less Remainers than June.

Remainers by the River are having second thoughts aren't they?

 

[The Rivet]

If you think that Belgium is an historically fascist country we fought hard against to defeat then I can understand your position on the EU. It's similar to Rivet's really. He thinks the EU is the Fourth Reich.

No Lincoln. I was referring to a particular document to restrict freedom of speech by radicals. Did you read the document or even look it up? No? Didn't think so. The parameters are so vague that the rules could be used to silence EU dissenters. Just like the 30's at the beginning of the third reich. It's a valid comparison and the accusation is my opinion. They act like dictatorial brown shirts.

 

[studio150]

So Richmond was all about an updated Brexit referendum!

Lib Dem's Olney (Remain) polled 54.9% of the vote (giving her all the non Goldsmth's votes - else 49.7% on her own).

Brexit vote: Remain 69.3%.

14.4% less Remainers than June.

Remainers by the River are having second thoughts aren't they?

Brexit turnout 82% By election turnout 53.2% therefore logically many remain voters stayed at home.

I'll leave you to calculate the weighted outcome based on the same turnout. You may want to amend your comments to reflect that

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No Lincoln. I was referring to a particular document to restrict freedom of speech by radicals. Did you read the document or even look it up? No? Didn't think so. The parameters are so vague that the rules could be used to silence EU dissenters. Just like the 30's at the beginning of the third reich. It's a valid comparison and the accusation is my opinion. They act like dictatorial brown shirts.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you. When you wrote "the eu IS the new fourth reich" I assumed you meant that the EU is the new Fourth Reich.

 

[The Rivet]

Sorry if I misinterpreted you. When you wrote "the eu IS the new fourth reich" I assumed you meant that the EU is the new Fourth Reich.

Lol......in attitudes indeed.

 

[cunning fergus]

Off the top of my head Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Czech, Denmark, Finland, France, Hungary, Greece, Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands lost control to either Germany or Russia. Those that came close to losing control include the UK and Malta, while Italy, Austria and Spain all fell under fascist control prior to the war.

Once the people of Europe became aware of the full horror of Hitler's Final Solution and the extermination of 6 million Jews everything came into focus. Nobody is re-writing history here - the driving force behind the creation of the EU was peace through trade and the intention was always to take that EU state throughout the landmass to the Russian and Turkish borders. You've only got to look at the force for good the EU has been in the Balkans since the conflict in the 90s to see that it has been successful in knitting together the disparate states.

Right then, full on axis allies of Germany as EU countries now......Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Italy and Romania. That is 7 with the Germans.

Croatia and the 3x Baltic States were not effectively states but all welcomed the Germans as liberators, all willingly implemented German laws, created pro German militia units to support the Wehrmacht and voluntarily persecuted their own Jews on an industrial scale. Croatia itself was arguably born as an independent state by Germany from occupation of Yugoslavia and the Ustase was one of their most willing collaborators. There is the other 4.

As for the neutrals I have included Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Sweden, plus Denmark and Luxembourg. That is being generous to the last 2, and I have classified them that way as they never effectively fought against the Germans. Thousands of Danes fought and died for the German cause and any resistance was negligible until the end, as for Luxembourg I note Juncker's old man fought for the Germans so enough said there.

That leaves Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Rep, France, Greece, Malta, Holland, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia all on the allied side.

So there it is 40% of EU countries full on supported the German cause at some point or another, throw in the swedes and Irish GOVTs and that would be 48%.

What a coincidence.

 

[cunning fergus]

While you were at it, you forgot to mention our Royal Family and their dubious support of Hitler

This means what exactly?

Were they working on the ovens, or ripping open the perineums, please enlighten me?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

You have abridged his comment , he added "regardless of the damage it will do to the country".
You also said "This thread is doing a great job calling out those on NSC who do not believe in democracy." I assumed you were referring to those on the remain side, who do not believe enacting the result of the referendum is the right thing to do, or that ending membership of the EU need not bring about control of immigration, absolute sovereignty or an end to payments to the EU.
My comment was made to bring to your attention that some on your side of the fence, are advocating to bypass democracy, if it brings about the result they want.

I did abridge the comment because in my opinion a person or a vocal group should not be allowed to ignore democracy just because they don't like the result of a vote. I am not talking of life or death issues where civil disobedience is to be lauded, but political stances that simply don't ascribe to the person's view.

If we were to use the principle provided, there would be free reign to challenge, not accept and cause problems for any elected government.

Neither side should bypass democracy. The question you allude to about invoking article 50 is more muddy, but I agree, the law should be adhered to.

 

[cunning fergus]

Italy, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and ?

Full analysis on 22998.

That said Slovakia, I gave them allied status, but I guess you could argue the Sudetenland Germans.........

 

[cunning fergus]

You're normally quite sound on the EU but this is just bonkers. France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Poland and Czechoslovakia were invaded, they scarcely fought with the Germans. Yes, there were people who supported the Nazis, yes, there were people who fought with them but there weren't tens of thousands of French in SS regiments. The UK has Nazi sympathisers too: we had Oswald Moseley and William Joyce; there was a British regiment in the SS (set up by the son of a Conservative politician, no less) should we deemed as supporting the Nazis too?

France and the UK have similar populations but French losses in the war were almost 50% more than the British ones.

Ireland was officially neutral but 12,000 Irishmen volunteered for the Allied Forces - that's a lot of people from a small country.

The point is that every European country had people who both supported the Allied Forces and the Axis powers. But when it comes to government support, there were only five countries on the other side: Germany, Italy, Austria, Croatia and Hungary (you could argue Spain did all it could to help) and of these, Croatia and Italy went the other way during the war. To say that the likes of France and Netherlands were supporters of Nazi Germany is highly simplified rewriting of history

Well we will disagree, however if you think there was a regiment (i.e. 1000 - 2000) British soldiers in the SS, you are the one who is raving bonkers.

By comparison, Vichy France had an army that actively fought against the allies, in France its milice was tens of thousands strong actively supporting the Germans, and the 33rd Waffen SS Division had over 10,000 volunteer Frenchmen serving in it.

The UK never came close to this level of support for the Germans...........if you want to see a country resist Germany, Norway is the best example. Still outside the EU too.

God bless 'em.

 

[cunning fergus]

If you think that Belgium is an historically fascist country we fought hard against to defeat then I can understand your position on the EU. It's similar to Rivet's really. He thinks the EU is the Fourth Reich.

Where did I say Belgium was?

We did on the other hand fight facist countries, and plenty of these are in the EU.

Given the direction of travel in the EU there will be a far right President in Austria and hard and/or far left equivalent in France.

It will be interesting to see how many hard right parties need to take power before progressive remainers start to wonder quite what type of people they want to be in "union" with?

 

[cunning fergus]

The ERT and the ETUC are independent of the EU, not set up by them, and both also communicate with National Governments including the UK Government. It would be daft to create and legislate for a single market for Europe without listening to European business and European trade unions.

With a mission statement which pushes against political objectives I will reserve my judgement on its independence thank you very much:

"closer integration of the European economy through the completion of a Single Market and the building of a durable monetary union"

Whether or not the EU should have "closer integration" is a matter for the electorates of the member states NOT a small cabal of capitalists.

I suspect you are pro EU so basic democracy will hold little currency for you............very predictable.

 

[Baldseagull]

With a mission statement which pushes against political objectives I will reserve my judgement on its independence thank you very much:

"closer integration of the European economy through the completion of a Single Market and the building of a durable monetary union"

Whether or not the EU should have "closer integration" is a matter for the electorates of the member states NOT a small cabal of capitalists.

I suspect you are pro EU so basic democracy will hold little currency for you............very predictable.

You say they have a mission statement that pushes against political objectives, and present that as a reason to doubt their independence of the EU?

It is a matter for the member states, their elected MEP's and council representatives, but that does not prevent anyone forming a lobby group to promote any agenda they think worthy to the EU. You might as well cite that the decision to allow planning permission for the Amex was unduly influenced by thousands of Brighton fans, and is therefore a monument to political corruption.

 

[nicko31]

Very poor performance so far, no discernible policies just a soundbite ambition to get " Capitalism to work for those left behind " . Performance at PMQ's pretty poor too against a weak opposition, no control of her Ministers who seem to be leaking what they want. Not even important enough for the annual EU Christmas dinner. Looks awkward when questioned...like she has been promoted above her ability.

Think we are starting to realise why it took 23 years for the Tories to win a general election.

Not even 2 years in and the country is in chaos. Having them in coalition with the Libs Dems seems like Utopia compared to what we have now

 

[Pavilionaire]

Right then, full on axis allies of Germany as EU countries now......Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Italy and Romania. That is 7 with the Germans.

Croatia and the 3x Baltic States were not effectively states but all welcomed the Germans as liberators, all willingly implemented German laws, created pro German militia units to support the Wehrmacht and voluntarily persecuted their own Jews on an industrial scale. Croatia itself was arguably born as an independent state by Germany from occupation of Yugoslavia and the Ustase was one of their most willing collaborators. There is the other 4.

As for the neutrals I have included Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Sweden, plus Denmark and Luxembourg. That is being generous to the last 2, and I have classified them that way as they never effectively fought against the Germans. Thousands of Danes fought and died for the German cause and any resistance was negligible until the end, as for Luxembourg I note Juncker's old man fought for the Germans so enough said there.

That leaves Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Rep, France, Greece, Malta, Holland, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia all on the allied side.

So there it is 40% of EU countries full on supported the German cause at some point or another, throw in the swedes and Irish GOVTs and that would be 48%.

What a coincidence.

You're completely missing the point about the majority of the 27 losing autonomy to the Nazis or the Russian Communists. The likes of Poland endured a miserable time under the Nazis, then the Russians and to them the EU represents something vital for their security. Croatia was a country at civil war in WW2, then peace only came through the powerful leadership of Tito, then war with Serbia after his death. The EU represents something powerfully stabilising for a historically unstable region.

 

[Mental Lental]

Lol this thread.

So now the EU is mostly made up of Nazis and Nazi sympathisers?

 

[Soulman]

Lol this thread.

So now the EU is mostly made up of Nazis and Nazi sympathisers?

I know it's a hoot is it not. Not long ago it was UKIP supporters that were made up of "Nazis and Nazi sympathisers?"...Who's next.