[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

I love the UK and just resent Brexit and the Tories for destroying much of the country I love..... and I believe they will continue to do it while you continue to defend them.

Do you hate the UK (and maybe only like England)?

You have a problem with U.K. democracy then……..

 

[Lever]

You have a problem with U.K. democracy then……..

When did I say that?

Why did you ask that?

Any thoughts on the question that I asked you?

 

[cunning fergus]

When did I say that?

Why did you ask that?

Any thoughts on the question that I asked you?

You hate Brexit and the Tories, both derived from democratic elections……..no?

No need to ask, if I hated this country I would move.

 

[Lever]

You hate Brexit and the Tories, both derived from democratic elections……..no?

No need to ask, if I hated this country I would move.

To be fair, I have issues on the democratic validity of both those elections but that’s for another debate. Scotland didn’t want Brexit or the tories, Northern Ireland didn’t want Brexit or the tories and Wales didn’t want the tories. Difficult for any democrat to maintain that s/he ‘loves ‘the UK whilst defending such a contradictory pro Brexit position…. But do try. I am indifferent to Brexit and Brexiters but along with the majority now I hate the mayhem, division and widespread decline they have caused.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No need to ask, if I hated this country I would move.

But you would prefer to live somewhere else in the UK though........ wouldn't you?

 

[cunning fergus]

To be fair, I have issues on the democratic validity of both those elections but that’s for another debate. Scotland didn’t want Brexit or the tories, Northern Ireland didn’t want Brexit or the tories and Wales didn’t want the tories. Difficult for any democrat to maintain that s/he ‘loves ‘the UK whilst defending such a contradictory pro Brexit position…. But do try. I am indifferent to Brexit and Brexiters but along with the majority now I hate the mayhem, division and widespread decline they have caused.

No doubt, and issues that for you and your fellow travellers remain unreconciled for now and perhaps for ever.

The facts are that you see the U.K. diminished outside the EU in every single facet of its post Brexit disposition, a point amplified by successive Tory governments that have tacitly supported the referendum mandate.

I don’t think indifference cuts it……no offence.

 

[Lever]

No doubt, and issues that for you and your fellow travellers remain unreconciled for now and perhaps for ever.

The facts are that you see the U.K. diminished outside the EU in every single facet of its post Brexit disposition, a point amplified by successive Tory governments that have tacitly supported the referendum mandate.

I don’t think indifference cuts it……no offence.

As I remarked, the referendum and election results are best left for another debate.

I think most informed analysts would acknowledged that in many ways we are worse off out of the EU (and pre Referendum Brexit opinion formers promised so much that never materialised).

No offence taken.... but hate is something I reserve for acts of self harm/mendacity/stupidity rather than the people who were persuaded to perform them; probably 'neutral' would be a more appropriate term for my feelings towards those who still insist Brexit is somehow in our interests, (rather than 'indifferent').

Brexit has taken a wrecking ball to the cohesiveness of the UK and for me that can only be matter of dismay, not hatred....

 

[cunning fergus]

As I remarked, the referendum and election results are best left for another debate.

I think most informed analysts would acknowledged that in many ways we are worse off out of the EU (and pre Referendum Brexit opinion formers promised so much that never materialised).

No offence taken.... but hate is something I reserve for acts of self harm/mendacity/stupidity rather than the people who were persuaded to perform them; probably 'neutral' would be a more appropriate term for my feelings towards those who still insist Brexit is somehow in our interests, (rather than 'indifferent').

Brexit has taken a wrecking ball to the cohesiveness of the UK and for me that can only be matter of dismay, not hatred....

This is a thread on Brexit that has over 12,000 pages, do you think we need another thread on the referendum and results?

Everything that needs to be said has been said on these pages, you are your fellow travellers on here continue to wallow in your self pity with the results, editing your posts like scousers by proxy.

If there is one aspect I do respect it is the time dedicated to this cause………like those Japanese soldiers that didn’t surrender till the 1970s. Bravo.

 

[Lever]

This is a thread on Brexit that has over 12,000 pages, do you think we need another thread on the referendum and results?

Everything that needs to be said has been said on these pages, you are your fellow travellers on here continue to wallow in your self pity with the results, editing your posts like scousers by proxy.

If there is one aspect I do respect it is the time dedicated to this cause………like those Japanese soldiers that didn’t surrender till the 1970s. Bravo.

I deliberately wrote another debate, not another thread. Sorry you didn't notice.

Your emotive language merely echoes your fixed divisive views and I hope that such sentiments soon become a distant memory and the UK can remain intact during these turbulent times, despite Brexit.

Thanks for those of your comments that were constructive, informative and avoided derision. They were thought provoking, rather than simply an attempt to provoke.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Brexit is done. Over.

And as 49% of us predicted, it's shit.

A lottery that should never have been held.

But it has been so we will have to live with it.

I have decided that my life will improve if I shoot one of my legs off. I have come to a democratic decision with myself to do this. I am not interested in the opinion of so-called experts. I am confident that when I have done it, I'll be the one laughing. Taken back control.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Most Brexiteers wouldn't be seen dead on this thread since it has become blindingly obvious what Brexit was actually all about, who was really backing it and it's repercussions across every aspect of the UK. Imagine being partly responsible for the whole clusterf*** that has put a border in the Irish sea, left us unable to implement Import controls, destroyed a third of all exporters, got Inflation growing, GDP shrinking, bought Johnson to power and has now given us Liz Truss

Since Ppf has been banned I suppose they desperately needed someone to 'step up to the plate', pretend none of this is happening, and attempt to get the thread off topic posting continuous whataboutism.

I guess CF drew the short straw amongst the league of strange bedfellows

 

[dsr-burnley]

To be fair, I have issues on the democratic validity of both those elections but that’s for another debate. Scotland didn’t want Brexit or the tories, Northern Ireland didn’t want Brexit or the tories and Wales didn’t want the tories. Difficult for any democrat to maintain that s/he ‘loves ‘the UK whilst defending such a contradictory pro Brexit position…. But do try. I am indifferent to Brexit and Brexiters but along with the majority now I hate the mayhem, division and widespread decline they have caused.

UK = United Kingdom. It's not a federation of 4 states where no action can be taken unless all 4 agree; it's a single political entity.

If there aren't enough Scottish votes for the majority of Scots to overrule the rest of the UK, that's just tough. Lancashire (traditional county) has about the same population as Scotland, and has the same right of veto as Scotland does over other parts of the UK - ie. none.

There has only been one vote on membership of the EU, and the vote was against. There is no democratic deficit.

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dmits-truss-as-she-flies-in-for-biden-meeting

Britain may not strike a free trade deal with the US for years, Liz Truss has admitted ahead of her first bilateral meeting with Joe Biden.

 

[nicko31]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dmits-truss-as-she-flies-in-for-biden-meeting

Another pint of Schadenfreude pils please barman...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

 

[Lever]

UK = United Kingdom. It's not a federation of 4 states where no action can be taken unless all 4 agree; it's a single political entity.

If there aren't enough Scottish votes for the majority of Scots to overrule the rest of the UK, that's just tough. Lancashire (traditional county) has about the same population as Scotland, and has the same right of veto as Scotland does over other parts of the UK - ie. none.

There has only been one vote on membership of the EU, and the vote was against. There is no democratic deficit.

Thank you for your input.

Did you read the context in which I wrote my comment?

Please read the exchange again. I deliberately avoided direct discussion on the matter of 'democracy'. Instead I focused on the risk presented by Brexit and the Johnsonian tories to the future cohesion of the UK; neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland wanted either the tories or Brexit and Wales didn't want the Tory government. I don't think the Scots want 'to overrule the rest of the UK' at all and of course couldn't anyway.

Your 'that's just tough' comment betrays a Johnson-like imposition rather than an effort to persuade .... but I would argue you cannot legislate for people's good will. If there was any before that attitude has eroded it further.

It's not good politics to manacle people to your poor decisions and then tell them it's 'just tough'.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Thank you for your input.

Did you read the context in which I wrote my comment?

Please read the exchange again. I deliberately avoided direct discussion on the matter of 'democracy'. Instead I focused on the risk presented by Brexit and the Johnsonian tories to the future cohesion of the UK; neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland wanted either the tories or Brexit and Wales didn't want the Tory government. I don't think the Scots want 'to overrule the rest of the UK' at all and of course couldn't anyway.

Your 'that's just tough' comment betrays a Johnson-like imposition rather than an effort to persuade .... but I would argue you cannot legislate for people's good will. If there was any before that attitude has eroded it further.

It's not good politics to manacle people to your poor decisions and then tell them it's 'just tough'.

Yes, there sub-context of your posts did escape me in the overall tone of the discussion.

But even then, I reckon there must come a time when the complaints of the Scots Nationalists go beyond sympathy and understanding and trying to reach an accommodation, and enters "tough luck" territory. Sooner or later we (or some of us) reach the stage of saying we would rather they stayed, but not at any price. If they think they would be better off leaving the UK, then just go.

But in that case, their argument about not wanting to leave the EU because a small country is committing economic suicide by seceding from political union with their largest supplier and customer, becomes totally false. Because that is exactly what they would be proposing to do. And (unlike the UK) they are heavily subsidised by the larger entity's taxes. which would make the economic effect rather worse.

Of course, they could argue (as Brexiteers do) that there is more to politics than money. Independence is worth something.

 

[Lever]

Yes, there sub-context of your posts did escape me in the overall tone of the discussion.

But even then, I reckon there must come a time when the complaints of the Scots Nationalists go beyond sympathy and understanding and trying to reach an accommodation, and enters "tough luck" territory. Sooner or later we (or some of us) reach the stage of saying we would rather they stayed, but not at any price. If they think they would be better off leaving the UK, then just go.

But in that case, their argument about not wanting to leave the EU because a small country is committing economic suicide by seceding from political union with their largest supplier and customer, becomes totally false. Because that is exactly what they would be proposing to do. And (unlike the UK) they are heavily subsidised by the larger entity's taxes. which would make the economic effect rather worse.

Of course, they could argue (as Brexiteers do) that there is more to politics than money. Independence is worth something.

Thank you for your considered response.

Today's 'A different bias' youtube video expresses my views much better than I can about Brexit and I don't blame the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland for deciding their fate is probably not in safe hands within the UK.

There is undoubtedly more to politics (and life of course) than money, but it is hard to accept the economic and reputational deterioration that the Johnson Government and Brexit has brought, especially for those in a country that voted against it. Dismissing them with 'Tough luck' will not help....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsTi66suPSw

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes, there sub-context of your posts did escape me in the overall tone of the discussion.

But even then, I reckon there must come a time when the complaints of the Scots Nationalists go beyond sympathy and understanding and trying to reach an accommodation, and enters "tough luck" territory. Sooner or later we (or some of us) reach the stage of saying we would rather they stayed, but not at any price. If they think they would be better off leaving the UK, then just go.

But in that case, their argument about not wanting to leave the EU because a small country is committing economic suicide by seceding from political union with their largest supplier and customer, becomes totally false. Because that is exactly what they would be proposing to do. And (unlike the UK) they are heavily subsidised by the larger entity's taxes. which would make the economic effect rather worse.

Of course, they could argue (as Brexiteers do) that there is more to politics than money. Independence is worth something.

Indeed it is

So what benefits as a result of Brexit does Independence give in 2022 after we have had the best part of two years of the new negotiated Independence and not at some unspecified wonderful time in the future ?

The way it helps the cost of living crisis which Brexit instigated would be really good, but any benefits from Independence would be really good, any at all

Obviously, as you have already pointed out, non financial benefits should be far easier to list.

 

[Randy McNob]

UK = United Kingdom. It's not a federation of 4 states where no action can be taken unless all 4 agree; it's a single political entity.

If there aren't enough Scottish votes for the majority of Scots to overrule the rest of the UK, that's just tough. Lancashire (traditional county) has about the same population as Scotland, and has the same right of veto as Scotland does over other parts of the UK - ie. none.

There has only been one vote on membership of the EU, and the vote was against. There is no democratic deficit.

You mean like where N Ireland have to suffer the consequences of Brexit and destroy the peace process that took decades to solve despite overwhelmingly voting against Brexit?

 

[dsr-burnley]

You mean like where N Ireland have to suffer the consequences of Brexit and destroy the peace process that took decades to solve despite overwhelmingly voting against Brexit?

I agree that breaking the Northern Ireland protocol for the sake of EU trade was a mistake, a bad mistake, but it needn't have been a consequence of Brexit. It would have been far better, and perfectly practicable, to have trade between the North and the Republic on the same terms as the rest of the UK/EU trade, and they got so tied up in knots about placating the Republicans in the north that they forgot that the Unionists were part of this agreement too.