[Politics] Brexit

[daveinplzen]

Nope, my father was a Bank Manager so I doubt he got any subsidies from the EU !

I'm sorry, your uncle

 

[Westdene Seagull]

But farmers will still need to follow EU standards in order to export to the EU while at the same time losing subsidies and grants ? " Turkey's .. etc " ?

It isn't the standards farmers have a problem with - it's CAP and the unfair competition from French farmers.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Had to laugh yesterday, visited a knowledgeable, learned City financial friend, only to discover he is starting to stockpile provisions......just in case like.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

How are our plans and actions and how ready are we for a no deal? 'Sub optimal' is the answer. If you still think no deal is sustainable for long for The UK, you might as well believe in pretty pink fairies.

At no time have I said we're ready for a no deal or that it wouldn't be painful. I was pointing out that Watford zero's constant claim that a 'no deal' is an impossibility isn't true.

Simple question - if 'no deal' is the utter impossibility that Watford zero is claiming why have EU members, particularly the Dutch, spent so much on preparation for a 'no deal' ?

 

[nicko31]

I suspect no really thinks Mrs May can get any alterations to the deal that will satisfy ERG or if yesterday's vote was a reflection of the numbers within our society who also agree with the ERG I estimate there numbers to be no more than 20% of the nation as a whole say 20 million assuming that is correct that would leave 90% who are either happy with Mrs Mays deal or would want to stay my thoughts are if another referndum were held and three questions posed

Stay in EU
Hard Brexit from EU
Mrs Mays deal with EU

How that would turn out assuming everyone who voted before voted again and had not changed their minds regarding staying or leaving

A vote with these options is what we need, this is presenting Brexit as reality to the public.

Undemocratic ? Not at all.

Far worse would be a climb down to Norway deal without the public having any say. Now that Brexiteers would have a right to feel peeved about

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Did your father trouser EU subsidies? Not attacking your father, but I was always hearing about these and how they kept many farmers afloat, so curious more than anything

I'm sorry, your uncle

He got some very minor subsidies to plant new hedgerow ...... nothing that would make or break him.

 

[daveinplzen]

At no time have I said we're ready for a no deal or that it wouldn't be painful. I was pointing out that Watford zero's constant claim that a 'no deal' is an impossibility isn't true.

Simple question - if 'no deal' is the utter impossibility that Watford zero is claiming why have EU members, particularly the Dutch, spent so much on preparation for a 'no deal' ?

The Dutch have may noted our leaders are useless and preparing for that scenario, just in case they are really as stupid as they have shown up to this point?

 

[vegster]

It isn't the standards farmers have a problem with - it's CAP and the unfair competition from French farmers.

If I recall correctly, the French farmers used to burn the lorry loads of Welsh lamb that were raised with the subsidies that the French farmers didn't get ?

 

[daveinplzen]

He got some very minor subsidies to plant new hedgerow ...... nothing that would make or break him.

Ok thanks. I dont understand the unfair French competition either (or CAP) for that matter. I was always under the impression that farmers were doing ok with the EU

 

[ManOfSussex]

At no time have I said we're ready for a no deal or that it wouldn't be painful. I was pointing out that Watford zero's constant claim that a 'no deal' is an impossibility isn't true.

Simple question - if 'no deal' is the utter impossibility that Watford zero is claiming why have EU members, particularly the Dutch, spent so much on preparation for a 'no deal' ?

It'll be painful to the point that it's impossibility is derived from its lack of sustainability. It's mutually assured damage and a huge geopolitical crisis all of our own making.

Simple answer - because they have competent, responsible Government's implementing contingencies as best they can, to try to account for the unpredictable course of action and consequences, unintended or otherwise, of the clueless political basket-case that is The UK and it's Brexit policy.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Ok thanks. I dont understand the unfair French competition either (or CAP) for that matter. I was always under the impression that farmers were doing ok with the EU

Some UK farmers get reasonable amounts in subsidies but that is a small minority. A large chunk of subsidies are based of the amount of land you have to farm. A good section of British farmers use a relatively small amount of land and therefore get very little. French farmers on the other hand tend to have HUGE areas to farm and so CAP favours them. It's a very over simplistic comparison but French farmers get large amounts of money towards new equipment because of the amount of land they have. Most British farmers get zero towards new equipment. The rule around CAP subsidies runs into thousands of pages. The application form my Uncle had to complete just to get a subsidy to plant new hedgerow was over 100 pages !!!! CAP needs reforming but that will never happen because is favours the French farmers far too much for the to ever agree to change it. And before someone says it, no, I don't hate French farmers, good on them for getting such a good deal.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It'll be painful to the point that it's impossibility is derived from its lack of sustainability. It's mutually assured damage and a huge geopolitical crisis all of our own making.

Simple answer - because they have competent, responsible Government's implementing contingencies as best they can, to try to account for the unpredictable course of action and consequences, unintended or otherwise, of the clueless political basket-case that is The UK and it's Brexit policy.

Fair answer - I just don;t see why they would spend the money on an impossiblity. Maybe they should start to spend some money of the possibility of the Sun exploding in the next 5 years ?

 

[daveinplzen]

Some UK farmers get reasonable amounts in subsidies but that is a small minority. A large chunk of subsidies are based of the amount of land you have to farm. A good section of British farmers use a relatively small amount of land and therefore get very little. French farmers on the other hand tend to have HUGE areas to farm and so CAP favours them. It's a very over simplistic comparison but French farmers get large amounts of money towards new equipment because of the amount of land they have. Most British farmers get zero towards new equipment. The rule around CAP subsidies runs into thousands of pages. The application form my Uncle had to complete just to get a subsidy to plant new hedgerow was over 100 pages !!!! CAP needs reforming but that will never happen because is favours the French farmers far too much for the to ever agree to change it. And before someone says it, no, I don't hate French farmers, good on them for getting such a good deal.

Ok, cheers for that

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

To use your line towards GT49er - with all due respect, what do you know about farming in the UK ? My uncle is a farmer, admittedly about to retire, and knowing some of the horrors he's had to deal with from the EU around farming I can quite understand why so many farmers voted leave.

I do not claim to know anything about farming. And I never said I did. My response is to the very vocal Brexiteer farmers complaining, bleating and whinging about Brexit taking time.....and then wanting subsidies from British tax-payers. All I know is what they complain about.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Jesus, this thread is breaking out into a sensible reasoned discussion. Wake up people, there are winners and losers and no inbetweeners!!!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

To use your line towards GT49er - with all due respect, what do you know about farming in the UK ? My uncle is a farmer, admittedly about to retire, and knowing some of the horrors he's had to deal with from the EU around farming I can quite understand why so many farmers voted leave.

But surely if farmers voted to leave and now find the consequences of leaving not to their taste it can reasonably be said that they are effectively admitting that their voting decision was based on a degree of ignorance, gullibility or emotion?

(I claim no special knowledge of farming but my family were farmers from the Viking invasion to the second world war and I know a few people in the business - my impression is that many of them will stick a finger up at bureaucrats on principle, and saw 23 June 2016 as an opportunity to do so.)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Some UK farmers get reasonable amounts in subsidies but that is a small minority. A large chunk of subsidies are based of the amount of land you have to farm. A good section of British farmers use a relatively small amount of land and therefore get very little. French farmers on the other hand tend to have HUGE areas to farm and so CAP favours them. It's a very over simplistic comparison but French farmers get large amounts of money towards new equipment because of the amount of land they have. Most British farmers get zero towards new equipment. The rule around CAP subsidies runs into thousands of pages. The application form my Uncle had to complete just to get a subsidy to plant new hedgerow was over 100 pages !!!! CAP needs reforming but that will never happen because is favours the French farmers far too much for the to ever agree to change it. And before someone says it, no, I don't hate French farmers, good on them for getting such a good deal.

So it favours the French and disadvantages all other 27 countries? One wonders how this continues to exists?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

But surely if farmers voted to leave and now find the consequences of leaving not to their taste it can reasonably be said that they are effectively admitting that their voting decision was based on a degree of ignorance, gullibility or emotion?

I'm not aware they are complaining of the consequences ..... it's certainly not what the OP implied. I believe, like any business, they are complaining they don't know what the deal is, what the rules are going to be, and so therefore can't plan. Seems a reasonable complaint to me ..... especially given May's utter shambolic management.

 

[Trufflehound]

The Dutch have may noted our leaders are useless and preparing for that scenario, just in case they are really as stupid as they have shown up to this point?

I was talking to my tax advisor last night. He told me the tax authorities here (in the Netherlands) have back-up plans to fill whole office buildings with the new staff that they believe will be needed just to deal with the mountains of additional customs paperwork that will arise out of a no deal scenario.

Good news if you're an accountant/clerk/administrative assistant I guess.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'd say 40% chance we are not

I can't work out what's going to happen now. How are you thinking we'll leave? Are you expecting May to get a deal through (which I thought was unlikely, as the whole house seemed against it)? And if not, how will we leave?