[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

You said what should apply equally on 6th Jan in your response to Lincoln Imp, your view on free movement of labour, "within a state or as with the EU across a group of states, it makes no difference."

Are you Sean Spicer?

Why is my explanation of within a state problematic?

It is true, within the UK I would restrict the rights of foreign workers. That does not mean I would restrict the rights of UK workers.

You are leaping to that conclusion........not me Baldy I have been consistently making the same point.

It's why we don't agree on the question of freedom of movement.........you don't want to protect UK to the detriment of foreign workers. I do.

You're an internationalist I am not.

 

[cunning fergus]

So what happens when the plumbing needs fixing and there are no plumbers living in your house? However there's this plumber living 3 doors down who'll work for reasonable rates but you don't want to let him into your house. How are you going to fix this problem? How are you going to solve the problem of supply and demand for essential services within your house that can't be done by it's current residents?

THIS is the question being asked of you, presented to you in the same format as this batshit crazy analogy that you've created (in order to get out of asking the original question.)

What you really need to do is clarify whether you'd rather have no plumbing at all than have it fixed by a stanger (ie foreigner). I'm sure the other residents of your household would be happy with your stance once winter pops round and there's no central heating. Right?

Right?

As you live in Japan, could you explain which foreigners Japan allow's to move there freely without any control?

Given your commitment to open borders, what steps did you need to take to live there?

Presumably none at all........zero (pardon the pun).

 

[Blue3]

What will this action solve at the end? What do you for example actually want?

What I wanted has passed and no longer the question its now what do I and millions of others don't want to happen

I don't want the negotiations to be undertaken and decisions taken that are going to affect us all for decades by a very small group without due reference to the whole of parliament or better still to the country via a general election

It's a fact this Government led by David Cameron and George Osborne was elected on the mandate of holding a referendum it was in their manifesto but what was not in their manifesto was what would happen after the referendum

We now have a new team unelected into the posts is a new Prime Minister new Chancellor and a completely new Brexit negotiating team manned by individuals who were kept at arms length by the former leadership.

The former leadership the one that wrote the manifesto has gone this new team finds its self with a blank cheque to negotiate and decide future of all of us and would prefer that to be undertaken secretly now non of that was in the Tories manifesto and so must be in my opinion be subject to scrutiny and a vote

 

[Lincoln Imp]

It is true, within the UK I would restrict the rights of foreign workers. That does not mean I would restrict the rights of UK workers.

That was not what you said and you know it. But if pretending makes you feel warm inside then that's OK with me. Just carry on.

 

[beorhthelm]

It's a fact this Government led by David Cameron and George Osborne was elected on the mandate of holding a referendum it was in their manifesto but what was not in their manifesto was what would happen after the referendum

you are overlooking that the Osborne and the Remain campaign made the claim (as part of project fear), that if you vote to leave, we leave. they never mentioned this advisory element, they fought their campaign on the basis that the vote determined the outcome.

 

[studio150]

I am sorry, I was taking it as read that everyone understood the laws of supply and demand.......that said I am having to dumb down quite a lot at the moment (can you believe I am even using a houses in a street metaphor for the UK and EU at the moment) so please forgive me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eT7VDPrQwIc

Once you have digested the model, apply it to the labour market.........the labour market works in a slightly different way but at this point I think it's important that we just keep to the basics.

I am fully aware of price elasticity. The problem is that not every product sits on a straight line and also other factors come into play.

An example of which is new technology. Oh hang on was there a question about that which has beeen asked more than once but yet again you have failed to answer.

Oh wondrous one please enlighten us mere mortals with your application of intervention for this example and explain how managing by supply and demand resolves this issue.

When I have some minutes spare later on I have a bulldozer for your houses

 

[Baldseagull]

Why is my explanation of within a state problematic?

It is true, within the UK I would restrict the rights of foreign workers. That does not mean I would restrict the rights of UK workers.

You are leaping to that conclusion........not me Baldy I have been consistently making the same point.

It's why we don't agree on the question of freedom of movement.........you don't want to protect UK to the detriment of foreign workers. I do.

You're an internationalist I am not.

Your explanation is not consistent with your initial response, pretending that it is, does not make it so.
If it is fine for a UK worker to move to where the work is, within the uk, but not fine for an EU worker to move to where the work is within the EU, then clearly you draw distinction between the two areas, which is quite different from saying your abhorrence of a workers ability to move from one place to another would apply "within a state or as with the EU across a group of states,"

 

[Baldseagull]

Makes you wonder why some are so against us Leaving the EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...r-mandelson-among-pro-eu-peers-looking-force/

They would get those pensions whether we are in or out, so the money should not be influencing them.

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm self employed, I don't earn much, but happy to pay more NI. There isn't enough money going in to the system.

Agreed, but whilst all Uber drivers will be paying a bit more, Uber will be paying a lot less.

 

[studio150]

What should apply equally though?

I don't want equality for UK and foreign workers........I want UK workers in the UK to have greater protection than foreign workers. I think this is what you are struggling to understand, because evidently you don't agree with that sentiment.

If I lived on a street of 28 houses, where the residents wanted to live in any house on the street they wanted to then I would disagree with it.

I would further disagree with the view that anyone who didn't come from the street could also choose to live in any house on the street.

The fact that I want to prevent anyone, whether or not they live on the street strolling into my house doesn't mean I want to restrict those living in my house from moving from the bathroom to the kitchen.

You want to conflate control within my house with control of my front door.

They are very different points.......very very different.

Unless you live in a house without a front door......

There is onemajor flaw with your street example. Why would anyone want to move into No.26 and gave you as a neighbour.

In fact I would think that most people would move out of the street.

Anyway there you are in your very nice No.28 which is nicely painted red whire and blue (or is it white and red as you dont want any welsh scots or irish in the street).

Anyway currently you have a coal merchant who visits the street everyday to sell sacks if coal to enable the houses to be heated.

Then aling comes a heating engineer from the next street who installs gas boilers and radiators into all 28 houses.

The next day the coal merchant turns up but cant srll any coal.

Now please explain what yoy are going to do with the price of coal to keep the coal merchant working.

 

[cunning fergus]

That was not what you said and you know it. But if pretending makes you feel warm inside then that's OK with me. Just carry on.

Calm down Margaret, I know exactly what I posted and exactly what it meant.

We have probably had hundreds of backwards and forward exchanges on this thread and others relating to the EU. In all those exchanges I will always consistently put the rights of British workers above foreign workers.

We always disagree on the point......you want a UK labour market that is free for EU workers to access.

Seeking to place controls on the UK's labour market does not equate to restrictions for UK workers. It is fascinating (clinically speaking) why you struggle to absorb the point when it makes sense to literally millions of people. Don't you think?

 

[cunning fergus]

There is onemajor flaw with your street example. Why would anyone want to move into No.26 and gave you as a neighbour.

In fact I would think that most people would move out of the street.

Anyway there you are in your very nice No.28 which is nicely painted red whire and blue (or is it white and red as you dont want any welsh scots or irish in the street).

Anyway currently you have a coal merchant who visits the street everyday to sell sacks if coal to enable the houses to be heated.

Then aling comes a heating engineer from the next street who installs gas boilers and radiators into all 28 houses.

The next day the coal merchant turns up but cant srll any coal.

Now please explain what yoy are going to do with the price of coal to keep the coal merchant working.

I don't use a number my house is registered as Albion House.......don't we all do that?

Anyway, you are right to some extent, now I have secured the doors to Albion House I note that No 1 and No 2 have got problems with some new residents who have arrived from outside the area. It's probably just a parking dispute but these people have been driving trucks around the living rooms in both houses.......wouldn't want that to happen in my living rom.

Yes, the coal merchant doesn't come here any more Albion House has been fully centrally heated for decades.

I'm pretty sure the neighbourhood committee banned him some years ago.......they got no 15 to build a load of windmills. They are doing very nicely out it too......

 

[cunning fergus]

I am fully aware of price elasticity. The problem is that not every product sits on a straight line and also other factors come into play.

An example of which is new technology. Oh hang on was there a question about that which has beeen asked more than once but yet again you have failed to answer.

Oh wondrous one please enlighten us mere mortals with your application of intervention for this example and explain how managing by supply and demand resolves this issue.

When I have some minutes spare later on I have a bulldozer for your houses

What is interesting is that I want to introduce controls to the UK labour market and you don't......and yet despite introducing these controls you want to raise examples of what you think can't controlled ? Surely, and assuming you are correct, I would have a better chance to manage developments with controls than the position that exists currently where there are no controls?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Calm down Margaret, I know exactly what I posted and exactly what it meant.

Seeking to place controls on the UK's labour market does not equate to restrictions for UK workers. It is fascinating (clinically speaking) why you struggle to absorb the point when it makes sense to literally millions of people. Don't you think?

Perfectly calm thank you Nigel. I have no problem absorbing the point you mention. But that was not what you said at the outset. Most normal people would react to a drafting error of this kind by saying "Oh dear, that wasn't what I meant at all. What I meant was..." but you just go into hyperbluster mode. Are you insecure?

 

[Two Professors]

Coo,all these nasty losers aren't half ganging up on Fergus,even checking back on posts from months ago,sad people.Shame they can't use the time for spell-checker to make their posts more legible-half of it looks like Alphabetti!But Fergus is made of stronger stuff than the bunch of wet lettuces from the runners-up.It makes us Winners proud to be British!

 

[studio150]

Coo,all these nasty losers aren't half ganging up on Fergus,even checking back on posts from months ago,sad people.Shame they can't use the time for spell-checker to make their posts more legible-half of it looks like Alphabetti!But Fergus is made of stronger stuff than the bunch of wet lettuces from the runners-up.It makes us Winners proud to be British!

Proud not to answer questions or admit mistakes, yes a proud day indeed. No doubt Mrs May and others are working on the same principle as [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] and Trump in just saying controls and intervention, but absolutely no detail in place to cover implementation just a deflection and a shrug of the shoulders and no understanding of the issues.

Yes the proud winners way, smile and say everything is wonderful even sy you are happy being poorer, but disappear and offer no answers when challenged by anyone with a different view.

It must be how Britain became Great Britain and ruled an Empire

 

[studio150]

What is interesting is that I want to introduce controls to the UK labour market and you don't......and yet despite introducing these controls you want to raise examples of what you think can't controlled ? Surely, and assuming you are correct, I would have a better chance to manage developments with controls than the position that exists currently where there are no controls?

Yet again no answer well done

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Coo,all these nasty losers aren't half ganging up on Fergus,even checking back on posts from months ago,sad people.Shame they can't use the time for spell-checker to make their posts more legible-half of it looks like Alphabetti!But Fergus is made of stronger stuff than the bunch of wet lettuces from the runners-up.It makes us Winners proud to be British!

It is a good idea to understand the principle of spaces between sentences before you blather on about legibility. As regards Nigel or whatever his name is, the only reason that a poster checked back was because he claimed that he had not said something that he clearly had. Even when presented with the evidence he continued to deny it. No ganging up. Just pointing out.

 

[The Clamp]

Im thinking if its you deciding then you tell the indigenous flag wavers to get knotted, always waving their bloody flags……and no one likes that right? Next bring in some cheaper labour from abroad who don’t care about waving the flags anyway, this will give you the excuse to perpetrate the narrative that flag waving is the outdated vestige of little Chinamen and racists and xenophobes.
Win win in your little book.
Watch out though, mess with the wavers too much and they are likely to bring those flags out again and flick you with them right in the nuts when you least suspect it.
You will be moaning for months and months when that happens.

Wince. That was a clunker. The waffle of the owned.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm self employed, I don't earn much, but happy to pay more NI. There isn't enough money going in to the system.

Brilliant, glad you can afford it. Millions can't. But that's Team Leave all over isn't it. I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up. And yes the system does need money. Money that's stashed away in fat cat off shore accounts and tax avoidance schemes.