[Other Sport] Boxing 🥊 Carini v Khelif.

[Curious Orange]

I didn't expect there to be so many transphobes on NSC, but here we are the day before Pride having to explain things to people who jump to conclusions to defend their bigotry.

I think that that accusation is uncalled for on this thread.

The majority of posters here have been entirely respectful of the woman concerned, and haven't conflated her specific circumstances with those of people who have transitioned wanting to compete with people from the gender category they weren't born into.

 

[AstroSloth]

I think that that accusation is uncalled for on this thread.

The majority of posters here have been entirely respectful of the woman concerned, and haven't conflated her specific circumstances with those of people who have transitioned wanting to compete with people from the gender category they weren't born into.

These are some general transphobic posts. Declaring that based solely on someone's looks and performance (which is what these comments are) that they must be a biological man who transitioned, is transphobic.

Some people have since looked at the actual story and changed their perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that these comments were initially transphobic.

Should never have happened, sorry if it offends but a man should never fight a woman.

Algerian Imane Khelif knew she was going to get a lot of criticism. You can complain about it if you like, but you can't deny that she's got balls.

That’s a man beating up a woman for a medal.

They need to stop this immediately.

Poor by the IOC. This is a bloke beating up women.

70 posts in and still none the wiser. Has the lass got a sausage and beans or nay?

 

[AstroSloth]

People talking about differences in genetics.

Should we ban taller boxers as they have a genetic advantage over smaller boxers? Or those with faster reaction times?

How about removing all of Michael Phelps' medals because he was born with double jointed ankles meaning he could hyper extend them 15% more than rivals, and had size 14 feet. Clearly an unfair advantage.

So far the only indication she had XY chromosomes came from a telegram post of a Russian Official (of the IBA, who are no longer allowed to run olympic events because of how corrupt they were) after she beat a Russian boxer.

People are also commenting she would have an advantage in testosterone, despite the fact she's never failed a testosterone test as far as we know.

 

[jcdenton08]

In my view, this is a very different situation to trans athletes such as Lia Thomas, who in my opinion has an unfair advantage when competing with biological women and absolutely should not be allowed to compete in women’s competition.

What is Khelif supposed to do? She was born a woman - to the best of everyone’s knowledge - and any anomalies with her genetic makeup is hardly her fault. She can’t compete with men (she’s a woman), but she’s too masculine for the women.

None of this is Khelif’s fault, if she is testing for things like testosterone within the regulated limits, I don’t see what else can be done. It is what it is.

 

[Professor Plum]

In my view, this is a very different situation to trans athletes such as Lia Thomas, who in my opinion has an unfair advantage when competing with biological women and absolutely should not be allowed to compete in women’s competition.

What is Khelif supposed to do? She was born a woman - to the best of everyone’s knowledge - and any anomalies with her genetic makeup is hardly her fault. She can’t compete with men (she’s a woman), but she’s too masculine for the women.

None of this is Khelif’s fault, if she is testing for things like testosterone within the regulated limits, I don’t see what else can be done. It is what it is.

‘What can be done’ is for that tiny number of athletes in her position ie having an unusual but significant difference in genetic makeup that blurs the line between genders and gives her an unfair sporting advantage, to nobly accept that there are some things she can’t do eg get into a boxing ring with genetically non-ambiguous women. It’s a bummer for her but she’s in that unfortunate position of falling between the two standard types. It’s no justification for her to face disadvantages in everyday life but in competitive sport? Sadly, yes.

We can’t always do whatever we want. When I was a young kid I was mad on the RAF and dreamed of being a pilot. When I made enquiries I found my eyesight wouldn’t allow me to even apply. It was a bummer but I had to accept it and focus on other things. As you say, it is what it is. All that said, opportunities for certain minorities and identities are massively greater now through legal protections than they ever were when I was growing up.

 

[StonehamPark]

These are some General Transphobic posts. Declaring that based solely on someone's looks and performance (which is what these comments are) that they must be a biological man who transitioned, is transphobic.

Some people have since looked at the actual story and changed their perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that these comments were initially transphobic.

You sure told me.

 

[Guinness Boy]

These are some general transphobic posts. Declaring that based solely on someone's looks and performance (which is what these comments are) that they must be a biological man who transitioned, is transphobic.

Some people have since looked at the actual story and changed their perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that these comments were initially transphobic.

This is the problem with the absolutist way this is taught to young people today, there’s no room for nuance. Mostly JK and Sharon Davies are wrong but sometimes they’re right.

A friend of mine’s youngest is currently transitioning. It’s absolutely the right decision for them and has ended years of mental health issues.

However, a rapist cannot just put on a dress and suddenly become the victim and no one should be boxing women with illegal levels of testosterone in their bodies. In those instances the safety of women should come before any thought of political correctness.

 

[Triggaaar]

We don't even know that she has a male gene.

If she doesn't, then her representatives should be highlighting that, papers claiming that she has should be sued for libel and apologising. If she hasn't benefitted from male puberty then I'm not sure what reason there is that she wouldn't be competing, and the Italian shouldn't be complaining.

Regardless of whether Khelif has, some women do have some male genes, and benefit due to that. That's what this discussion is about.

She's not trans no, but people are claiming she is and attacking her due to transphobic views that anyone who has masculine features must be trans, before finding out that she was born female.

I haven't done any of those things but you called me transphobic.

Then people start trying to change what it means to be a female.

Obviously when things like this are discussed, people learn. Is anyone on this thread saying she's not female?

It's something that affects trans people, whether intended or not.

Are you suggesting that there should never be a discussion on which athletes compete in the men's category, and which compete in the women's? Because that would be daft. There has to be a discussion, and naturally that discussion is going to affect some trans people. It's unavoidable.

 

[Triggaaar]

People talking about differences in genetics.

Should we ban taller boxers as they have a genetic advantage over smaller boxers?

We don't ban lanky boxers, but we do require them to fight in a different category to diddy fighters. The same is being suggested for women who have been through male puberty.

So far the only indication she had XY chromosomes came from a telegram post of a Russian Official

The other indication is that she/her representatives haven't denied the claim. If it was me being talked about, and it wasn't true, I'd simply point this out, and say that I'm happy for it to be tested by a less corrupt organisation. And I'd sue the organisation that made the false claim. But since that hasn't happened, and female athletes are allowed to compete with male genes, it seems like a reasonable assumption that she probably does have some male genes. And if not, this whole conversation still applies, just not to her.

People are also commenting she would have an advantage in testosterone, despite the fact she's never failed a testosterone test as far as we know.

According to the IBF, she has. And I don't think the IOC have a testosterone limit, so she can't fail.

 

[Triggaaar]

In my view, this is a very different situation to trans athletes such as Lia Thomas, who in my opinion has an unfair advantage when competing with biological women and absolutely should not be allowed to compete in women’s competition.

What is Khelif supposed to do? She was born a woman - to the best of everyone’s knowledge - and any anomalies with her genetic makeup is hardly her fault. She can’t compete with men (she’s a woman), but she’s too masculine for the women.

None of this is Khelif’s fault, if she is testing for things like testosterone within the regulated limits, I don’t see what else can be done. It is what it is.

The condition is very rare so the chances of someone being an Olympic athlete and then also having this condition (but not benefiting from it) are tiny. A woman who has gone through male puberty and ends up competing at the Olympics, probably wouldn't have got to the Olympics without the condition. No it is not their fault, but it's not every other female athlete's fault that they haven't gone through male puberty. The solution for me would be that the tiny number of people this could apply to, should not be able to compete against women without the advantage.

 

[jcdenton08]

The condition is very rare so the chances of someone being an Olympic athlete and then also having this condition (but not benefiting from it) are tiny. A woman who has gone through male puberty and ends up competing at the Olympics, probably wouldn't have got to the Olympics without the condition. No it is not their fault, but it's not every other female athlete's fault that they haven't gone through male puberty. The solution for me would be that the tiny number of people this could apply to, should not be able to compete against women without the advantage.

I’m wondering where this would stand legally in terms of discrimination. I doubt there is a test case for this specific circumstance.

 

[pocketseagull]

This is an interesting article

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

For about a decade — a time that Olympic historians may someday classify as “the Michael Phelps era” — I’ve been reading about the unique genetic blessings bestowed upon the greatest swimmer to ever live. Phelps possesses a disproportionately vast wingspan, for example. Double-jointed ankles give his kick unusual range. In a quirk that borders on supernatural, Phelps apparently produces just half the lactic acid of a typical athlete — and since lactic acid causes fatigue, he’s simply better equipped at a biological level to excel in his sport.

I’m thinking of those stories, because I’m thinking about the ways Michael Phelps was treated as wondrous marvel. Nobody suggested he should be forced to have corrective surgery on his double-jointed ankles, nobody decided he should take medication to boost his lactic levels.

Also, looking Kheif's record it's not like she's steamrolling opponents, a mix of wins/losses, very few KOs. It doesn't seem that genetics have afforded her a massively unfair advantage that should stop her from competing imo.

 

[m20gull]

This is an interesting article

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

Also, looking Kheif's record it's not like she's steamrolling opponents, a mix of wins/losses, very few KOs. It doesn't seem that genetics have afforded her a massively unfair advantage that should stop her from competing imo.

That isn't quite the point of a female category. You open it up to a suggestion that any male athlete whose genetics did not afford a massively unfair advantage should be in the female category. And somewhere there is a female athlete who could have been at the Olympics but has been stopped from competing.

 

[Triggaaar]

I’m wondering where this would stand legally in terms of discrimination. I doubt there is a test case for this specific circumstance.

People have to play sport in different categories (including large people not being able to fight in boxing matches with small people). The case we're talking here is not about a trans athlete, but in terms of discrimination you could say the same thing - should women who grew up male be banned from competing in female sports? If they were allowed to compete with no restrictions, then you can basically say goodbye to women's sport. I can't see courts upholding such a ridiculous idea. So if that's not discrimination, then I can't see why requiring female athletes to have gone through female puberty is either.

 

[jcdenton08]

People have to play sport in different categories (including large people not being able to fight in boxing matches with small people). The case we're talking here is not about a trans athlete, but in terms of discrimination you could say the same thing - should women who grew up male be banned from competing in female sports? If they were allowed to compete with no restrictions, then you can basically say goodbye to women's sport. I can't see courts upholding such a ridiculous idea. So if that's not discrimination, then I can't see why requiring female athletes to have gone through female puberty is either.

Well obviously weight classes still apply.

 

[Professor Plum]

Also, looking Kheif's record it's not like she's steamrolling opponents, a mix of wins/losses, very few KOs. It doesn't seem that genetics have afforded her a massively unfair advantage that should stop her from competing imo.

TBH, this is neither here nor there. It may be that she’s been beating certain opponents that she wouldn’t have done had her testosterone levels (or whatever it is she’s supposed to have, it’s still not very clear) not been relatively high. It may be that if she had a more conventional genetic makeup, she would be nowhere near the Olympic finals. So in that respect she may still have a significant competitive advantage, and may have deprived others of making progress. There are a lot of ifs and maybes here because the facts are unclear.

 

[The Clamp]

These are some general transphobic posts. Declaring that based solely on someone's looks and performance (which is what these comments are) that they must be a biological man who transitioned, is transphobic.

Some people have since looked at the actual story and changed their perspective, but it doesn't change the fact that these comments were initially transphobic.

It’s not a trans issue.

As well you know.

Get a clue.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Khelif just won again.

Much closer fight, no complaints from the Hungarian opponent.

 

[m20gull]

Well obviously weight classes still apply.

And nobody objects to testing that boxers are in the correct weight class.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

People talking about differences in genetics.

Should we ban taller boxers as they have a genetic advantage over smaller boxers? Or those with faster reaction times?

How about removing all of Michael Phelps' medals because he was born with double jointed ankles meaning he could hyper extend them 15% more than rivals, and had size 14 feet. Clearly an unfair advantage.

So far the only indication she had XY chromosomes came from a telegram post of a Russian Official (of the IBA, who are no longer allowed to run olympic events because of how corrupt they were) after she beat a Russian boxer.

People are also commenting she would have an advantage in testosterone, despite the fact she's never failed a testosterone test as far as we know.

I think I explained this quite carefully earlier. It is all about having an advantage. Anyone having abnormal levels of testosterone, whether by biology or injection, has an unfair advantage. There are defined acceptable levels. Anyone having chromosomes that are not XX or XY and are competing against XX or XY have an unfair advantage.

That's it.