Baroness Thatcher - Dead / RIP

[drew]

No, Scargill deliberately picked a fight.

And that IMF stuff simply is true. We got a fat loan from the IMF to bail us out of bankruptcy, and in return, we had to do much as Greece has to do today. Cut spending. Cut our debts. I was there. I watched the news. Read the papers. Devoured Question Time. Studied it at degree level. Anecdotal evidence, pah!

Google the Ridley Plan or Ridley Report and you might learn something.

 

[HovaGirl]

Good, as I love history and lest we forget and all that, and whilst it might not be healthy I still get a little wound up about, amongst other things:

She supported the retention of capital punish
She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
She abolished free milk for schoolchildren
She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
The poll tax
She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we now import expensive coal from abroad
She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
Section 28
She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
She opposed the reunification of Germany
She invented Quangos
She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
21.9% inflation

If we forget this stuff we never learn from it, whatever the way you lean.

Re the coal mines, someone here posted an excellent article which showed more coal mines had shut before Thatcher came to power, than after. She tried to bail them out, but Scargill didn't want to know. She referred to the unions as the "enemy within", as opposed to the Argentines, who were the enemy abroad.

She had to privatise state monopolies, because they were bankrupting the State. Our taxes simply couldn't afford them.

She deregulated the banks which put London back at the forefront of the global financial world and made a lot of money for Britain. Hindsight is wonderful, but Brown's policy of making the Bank of England independent did the real damage.

In the early days, Mandela was a terrorist. Again, hindsight has whitewashed this because of his subsequent career and the fact he spent 27 years in prison.

The reunification of Germany was an horredously expensive business, which the EU is still paying for.

The minimum wage sounds like a great ideal, but in fact, it has allowed tribes of foreigners to work in this country under the counter for less than the minimum wage. (No jobs for the low-paid, and no taxes from those jobs, either.)

Interest rates under the previous Labour government had been as high as 27%, which makes 15% under Thatcher seem modest in comparison.

She diverted taxation from income tax to indirect taxation, such as VAT, under the principle that people could CHOOSE whether to buy something, and thus, whether to pay tax on it.

I suppose one way for the State to increase its income (which it had to do because it was broke), was to sell Council Houses, but that was a disastrously short-sighted thing to do.

(Too many other things to comment on.)

Re school milk, she used the money saved on school milk to build new schools.

 

[HovaGirl]

It would be very interesting to see the average age of all the haters that want to "dance on her grave " are on this thread I suspect most were not even born , there is no doubting she was the Iron Lady and didn't get everything right but she inherited a real mess of a country that had been totally ****ed by the far left ,

Yup, and the next Labour Government, under Blairybrown, didn't learn a thing, and overspent all over again. So back to square one.

 

[HovaGirl]

Tebbit next,we can all but hope.

Why? He's had no power for donkeys.

 

[clapham_gull]

Re the coal mines, someone here posted an excellent article which showed more coal mines had shut before Thatcher came to power, than after. She tried to bail them out, but Scargill didn't want to know. She referred to the unions as the "enemy within", as opposed to the Argentines, who were the enemy abroad.

She had to privatise state monopolies, because they were bankrupting the State. Our taxes simply couldn't afford them.

She deregulated the banks which put London back at the forefront of the global financial world and made a lot of money for Britain. Hindsight is wonderful, but Brown's policy of making the Bank of England independent did the real damage.

In the early days, Mandela was a terrorist. Again, hindsight has whitewashed this because of his subsequent career and the fact he spent 27 years in prison.

The reunification of Germany was an horredously expensive business, which the EU is still paying for.

The minimum wage sounds like a great ideal, but in fact, it has allowed tribes of foreigners to work in this country under the counter for less than the minimum wage. (No jobs for the low-paid, and no taxes from those jobs, either.)

Interest rates under the previous Labour government had been as high as 27%, which makes 15% under Thatcher seem modest in comparison.

She diverted taxation from income tax to indirect taxation, such as VAT, under the principle that people could CHOOSE whether to buy something, and thus, whether to pay tax on it.

I suppose one way for the State to increase its income (which it had to do because it was broke), was to sell Council Houses, but that was a disastrously short-sighted thing to do.

(Too many other things to comment on.)

Re school milk, she used the money saved on school milk to build new schools.

The suffragettes were considered terrorists too. Thankfully for them not only could you study politics but you are now allowed to be involved in it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it ?

 

[HovaGirl]

Worth pointing out that one of her legacies was to f### her party for years after leaving office. Meddling behind the scenes gave the Euro rebels the strength to screw Major in the end. I'm sure the Conservative party are quite capable of having a grown up unified view on the subject. Unfortunately Thatcher spawned a lunatic fringe that are causing Cameron grief to this day.

As is UKIP. Mrs T was probably the founder member.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Re the coal mines, someone here posted an excellent article which showed more coal mines had shut before Thatcher came to power, than after. She tried to bail them out, but Scargill didn't want to know. She referred to the unions as the "enemy within", as opposed to the Argentines, who were the enemy abroad.

She had to privatise state monopolies, because they were bankrupting the State. Our taxes simply couldn't afford them.

She deregulated the banks which put London back at the forefront of the global financial world and made a lot of money for Britain. Hindsight is wonderful, but Brown's policy of making the Bank of England independent did the real damage.

In the early days, Mandela was a terrorist. Again, hindsight has whitewashed this because of his subsequent career and the fact he spent 27 years in prison.

The reunification of Germany was an horredously expensive business, which the EU is still paying for.

The minimum wage sounds like a great ideal, but in fact, it has allowed tribes of foreigners to work in this country under the counter for less than the minimum wage. (No jobs for the low-paid, and no taxes from those jobs, either.)

Interest rates under the previous Labour government had been as high as 27%, which makes 15% under Thatcher seem modest in comparison.

She diverted taxation from income tax to indirect taxation, such as VAT, under the principle that people could CHOOSE whether to buy something, and thus, whether to pay tax on it.

I suppose one way for the State to increase its income (which it had to do because it was broke), was to sell Council Houses, but that was a disastrously short-sighted thing to do.

(Too many other things to comment on.)

Re school milk, she used the money saved on school milk to build new schools.

I don't remember any new schools being built in my part of Sussex back in the early seventies, but I do remember being really thirsty at "ex-milk time".

Whilst I doff my hat at your ability in replying, I actually don't believe you are correct on most of these points and saying "The reunification of Germany was an horredously expensive business, which the EU is still paying for" is not really an answer is it? Nor is "She had to privatise state monopolies, because they were bankrupting the State. Our taxes simply couldn't afford them". You really got me on the "The minimum wage sounds like a great ideal, but in fact, it has allowed tribes of foreigners to work in this country under the counter for less than the minimum wage. (No jobs for the low-paid, and no taxes from those jobs, either.). True colours popping out. I would suggest there are better ways for an apparently broke state to sell off its council housing supply, but hey, thats just me, my parents bought theres!

 

[HovaGirl]

The suffragettes were considered terrorists too. Thankfully for them not only could you study politics but you are now allowed to be involved in it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it ?

Indeed, the suffragettes were terrorists, and they didn't win a thing for anyone. On the other hand, the much more peaceful Suffragists won the vote for women.

 

[GNF on Tour]

Yup, and the next Labour Government, under Blairybrown, didn't learn a thing, and overspent all over again. So back to square one.

er...............it was Major after Thatcher.

 

[St Moritz]

She wasn't the last century's best peacetime prime minister...

 

[HovaGirl]

I don't remember any new schools being built in my part of Sussex back in the early seventies, but I do remember being really thirsty at "ex-milk time".

Whilst I doff my hat at your ability in replying, I actually don't believe you are correct on most of these points and saying "The reunification of Germany was an horredously expensive business, which the EU is still paying for" is not really an answer is it? Nor is "She had to privatise state monopolies, because they were bankrupting the State. Our taxes simply couldn't afford them". You really got me on the "The minimum wage sounds like a great ideal, but in fact, it has allowed tribes of foreigners to work in this country under the counter for less than the minimum wage. (No jobs for the low-paid, and no taxes from those jobs, either.). True colours popping out. I would suggest there are better ways for an apparently broke state to sell off its council housing supply, but hey, thats just me, my parents bought theres!

When was Goldstone Junior School built? And Hove Park Lower?

The reunification of Germany, economically, is on a par with Britain and Romania joining financial forces. The former is a perceived "rich" country, while the latter is "poor". The rich country would have to give lots of money to the poor country, for the poor country to come up to the standards of the rich country. And that is what happened between rich West Germany which had to pay for poor East Germany. Almost bankrupted Germany. With some political machinations, Germany used the EU to subsidise reunification. Which mean that GB plc paid for some of the reunification. We could have used some of that money to build social housing instead.

And State monopolies were bankrupting the State, just as the benefits system is today. Our taxes only pay for so much. If there aren't enough taxes, then the State has to borrow money, and that has been going on for decades at vast interest rates. Thatcher managed to pay most of them off and Major left our economy in the best condition it had been in since before the First World War. Along comes Gordon who spent it all, and some. And when he ran out of that, he sold the gold and borrowed more. Just so the Labour Government could look cuddly and caring to the gullible masses.

Minimum wage. Think about it. If a firm can get away with paying less than the minimum wage, it will, because it either increases its profits, or lessens its wage bill so it can pay its electricity and tax bills. (Not all companies are money-grabbing profiteers. Some are just trying to make a living for their owners.) If they can lessen their outgoings, such as in a building firm, by paying Poles less than the minimum wage under the counter from brown paper bags, then many companies will do this, and are doing this. And, this means that the Poles/Bulgarians/Chinese or whoever are not paying tax on it. It also means those low-paid jobs won't go to our unemployed British youth, because it would all have to be above board.

 

[clapham_gull]

Indeed, the suffragettes were terrorists, and they didn't win a thing for anyone. On the other hand, the much more peaceful Suffragists won the vote for women.

I think it's clear where you stand and there is no point arguing.

 

[Benson]

Great thread. After all the arguments have been put forward and debated, I have definitely changed my opinion on the Baroness and her legacy.

Two questions though; Can camels swim? and, What does Spanish Dave actually do?

 

[HovaGirl]

Google the Ridley Plan or Ridley Report and you might learn something.

What has the Ridley Plan got to do with the IMF?

 

[HovaGirl]

er...............it was Major after Thatcher.

I said: Yup, and the next Labour Government, under Blairybrown, didn't learn a thing, and overspent all over again. So back to square one.

I didn't say the next Government. I said the next LABOUR Government.

 

[HovaGirl]

I think it's clear where you stand and there is no point arguing.

Because I pointed out the difference between Suffragettes and Suffragists, how does that show "where I stand"? Where do you think I stand?

 

[Doc Lynam]

I think it's clear where you stand and there is no point arguing.

I take my hat of to you with that dignified response.

 

[clapham_gull]

In my industry I've witnessed the minimum wage actually bring wages down. It became a clear indication of what companies could get away with. They weren't quite sure before.

Many companies get away with paying nothing of course with the utter scandal that is internships.

That's where I see the spirit of Thatcher seeping through into young people who defend it, even those you consider themselves "left wing". The problem I see with internships. The myth that are available to everyone. They aren't of course, only those who have an alternative non wage based stream of finance to support themselves.

There is always the anecdotal story of the one that broke through. But just like land, whilst we might have the right to own it there simply isn't enough to go round.

That sums up Thatcher for me. She made it easier for some and f### the rest. I come back to a previous post, her legacy is one of division. Where you stand on that divide completely influences your view of her.

Admittedly anyone could join her club and she definitely helped break down the class barriers in this country.

Unfortunately she simply erected new ones in a different place.

 

[clapham_gull]

Because I pointed out the difference between Suffragettes and Suffragists, how does that show "where I stand"? Where do you think I stand?

You consider the Suffragettes and Mandela to be terrorists and question the re-unification of Germany.

I think it's quite clear where you stand and myself in the words of the Great Leader am obviously "not one of us".

Another poster understood my gracious response, unfortunately......

I didn't even bring up the quite wonderful "hindsight whitewashed" turn of phrase, but I could have done.

 

[dingodan]

The function of a Government is to safeguard the people, and the cost of this is borne by the people through their income tax.

I think an income tax is morally wrong. There are other ways to raise revenues for the services which the government should provide, and it ought to provide a lot less than it does today, which I think would make providing what it ought to possible without an income tax.

I am weary of the argument that the role of government is to provide safety. The government cannot make us totally safe without destroying our Liberty, and the purpose of government should be the protection of your Liberty.